Diplomacy basics, please

Civ V diplo does seem to need some work. In a game I played as warmonger, I was going around the world taking out every nation, and every time my troops were next to his border, I'd say I'm just passing through, and every time I'd declare a few turns later, get the liar dialog, and move in. I'd have Civs constantly complain to me about being a bully, but when they were the next target and they called me out on my troops, they happily believed the lie. It worked on every single one of them on King difficulty.

They really should have banded together against me a long time ago, and not believed what I said, because it was rather silly to go through the same routine every time and have the 7th leader still be surprised that I lied to him after having already done it 6 times.

I like the break away from Civ IV's diplomacy. Civ IV diplomacy wasn't diplomacy, it was abusing a stupid AI with tricks that really shouldn't work. However, Civ V's diplomacy needs some work to make more sense.
 
The Diplomatic victory consists of teching up to the UN and bribing/liberating enough city states to get a supermajority of votes. AI players will never vote for you. There are a lot of ways you can describe this victory condition, but none of them involve actual diplomacy.

In that very important sense diplomacy has been removed.
 
I like the way diplo victory is handled in this one, but then, I never cared for it much in Civ IV. In Civ IV you could win a diplo victory after steamrolling most of the opponents and grabbing a bunch of vassals, which was pretty silly.
 
You are right, I haven't digged into the code. But I love diplomacy in civ games, so I have tried hard. And in all my games, with many different leader oponents, it doesn't matter whatever you do. The attacks are random, at any time and regardless of anything you have done. Not even the excuse for "they just play for winning" counts, since they do random things that clearly harm them too.

All I can say is, dice rolls on AI diplomatic decisions. Or in other words, no diplomacy gameplay. Which is a shame for the civ series. (this doesn't mean Im not loving everything else about the game)



Neither of us has looked into the code. So until someone breaks it down, lets not make hasty generalizations like "there is no diplomacy".

Let's just say that we don't yet understand the mechanics of diplomacy yet.

I'd wager that there is more to it than "roll d20, declare on 1-3."

Just because a diplo modifier isn't displayed on-screen doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.


All we are doing here is speculating based on anecdotal evidence.
 
There is little AI diplomacy to the game in my opinion. They do change the tone of discussion (both dialogue and body language) as they become more angry with you. Example I was catering to Bismark and things went well unti I started settlign cities near him and actually stole tiles via culture moving closer to him. Moving units close to their borders is another problem even if your going after another leader. He started getting insulting and his appearence changed, bascially you gotta read him like he was a real leader rather than a chart with +/- numbers.

Right now I think all things diplomatic go through the city states which seam to behave more like CIV IV AIs then CIV V AIs. It's basically a Me against the World situation with city states as the wild card.

Personally I would like to see a little more personality and diplomacy with the AIs. Not as much as Civ IV, but more than we have now. I miss the days of getting a good friend, or hateful enemy. Also I miss not meeting a strongely bonded block. Example I played a continents game and met Alexander and Elizabeth on their own continent. Soon ebnough there was war, never a chance for these 2 to be allies against me. Diplomacy in CIV IV could be badly manipulated but it also could be a big benefit to the AIs. Now, every AI can simply be dismantled one after another, no attacking the old 3 AI buddist block.

ONe change I want to see in updates and so forth is better AI diplomacy.
 
To say that Diplomacy doesn't exist is probably an overstatement.

The A.I.'s highest motivating factor is what will help me win the most. If that means turning your back on you, it will probably do it.
 
In that very important sense diplomacy has been removed.
No, it's just been shifted elsewhere. Which is fine, because an A.I. should never give a win away, imo.

In fact, the shift in diplomacy is almost completely transparent in the sense that city-states are essentially an evolution of civ4 diplomacy.

-clear-cut view of how much they like you and what state they're in.
-leave them alone, and someone else will claim their friendship. like religion; leave it alone, religious blocs form against you. Your neighbor could've been budhist like you, but instead he's Hindu like your enemy.
-Make excellent "trade" partners. Granted, there's no trading, but you could rob super-friendly A.I. civs blind in civ4, especially in the area of tech trades. In it's place, City-states offer static benefits: A Thematic boost to your civ and a couple of resources.

Hell, it even replicates the fact that you have visibility around their city.. just like civ4's religion system.

Personally I think diplomacy is very much alive and well, and city-states have enhanced it. Here's a scenario that I found awesome;

~Two-city states have a dispute with one other one. Meaning wiping out that one city nets me two allies. Sweet deal right?
~So I gather my army, head to it's borders and declare war ready to get an immediate boost.
~Russia and India come along and say tell me to remove my troops from the territory of the city-state. I say no and take the city-state.
~A few turns later, Russia and India declare war on me.

This would be nice, if their reactions would mean anything. They know you are a lier, but since they would declare war anyway no matter what they think of you, this aspect which could be cool added to a relation system, is also nonesense.

See, it depends on what you define as "matters", if you mean in the "pals for life" sense of the word. Sure, it doesn't matter. But as a ward against ill relations and war, it does. Let's take a simplified example... Let's say that on average, every A.I., even Ghandi, will declare war on you in the life of a game by turn 300 no matter what.

Does that make diplomacy irrelevant? No; it changes the purpose:

A.) Diplomacy serves as the means of which prevent the A.I. from declaring war until those 300 turns have passed. Because if you don't play along, it's likely to provoke an A.I. sooner... if they are in fact going to attack you no matter what. But bear in mind I had an entire game where I shared a continent with Monty and he never tried gobble me up. We were "friends" the whole game.

B.) Within those 300 turns, milk the A.I. for as many benefits as you can get. Primarily Gold and research pacts.

Take my Russia and India example above.. I had Pacts with both, and had done many a research pact and resource trade... Essentially, the 3 of us were best buds. In the life of the game, would they have attacked me at some point? Possibly, probably. But who knows when that point would've been, especially since I was larger than both of them combined. However, due to my choice, I suffered diplomatic penalties... They teamed up on me and instead of 2 city-state allies costing me 1 conquered city-state, it cost me a two front war with two Civs instead.

So if you're definition of "not matter what" is during the life of the game... then yea, you're right. There's no way to deter A.I. from attacking you if they "choose" to do it. However, I think it's false to claim that working the system doesn't affect their decisions in some way. Having a friend for 100 turns because I played nice, is far better than have that same friend for only 50 turns instead because I didn't care about the system at all (Such as, the key example, lying about your war declarations).

But from here on out I'm just gonna stick with possible tips since the debate on the system is irrelevant. Some folks like it, some don't.
 
Greetings, I'm Montezuma, leader of German Empire
Greetings, I'm Montezuma, leader of Greek Empire
Greetings, I'm Montezuma, leader of American Empire
...
 
A couple things:

It's actually feasible to get a diplomatic victory now, even in a MP FFA. I found that it was ridiculously difficult to impossible in Civ4, so I'm happy about that. City-state diplomacy is definitely the most mechanic-y version of diplomacy in Civ5, and it seems fairly solid to me. A diplo victory is simple: get lots of city states to vote for you, annex or liberate a rival civ capital or two, build UN, vote in 10 turns, win.

Civ-Civ Diplomacy is different. The point is supposed to be that civs are trying to win and there's no such thing as an allied victory (except in MP team matches). Thus, it makes sense that any and all friendships are short-term at best. You can't leverage civ-civ diplomacy into a diplomatic victory because that would mean they lose. Proxy warring via city-state is basically a diplomatic conflict.

One thing I'd like to see is the ability to respond to a war declaration with a compromise or placation. Obviously wouldn't work 100% of the time, but if someone is only lightly hostile or interested in a non-domination victory, it might get them off your back briefly. It would be a good counter-point to the fact that civs are a lot more willing to randomly declare on you.

I mean, the point of civ-civ diplomacy is to misdirect and exploit the mental weakness of a civilization's leader. Get them to attack someone else. Get them to give you their stuff. But at the end of the day, they're still trying to win the game. That's why it makes sense for a civ to capitulate by giving you everything: they can still win a cultural victory as long as they have a city.
 
So far in my game, i´ve met Ghandi and Cathrine, Cathrine told me i was getting too close to her borders, even though i wasen't. I picked the rude response, and then she attaacked me.

So choosing the rude response, defenitly makes them hate you.
 
so far some things I've noticed. Pretty much no matter what if you share a border with an AI, they will not like you, probably even try to coordinate a war against you with other AI's. Also the AI's only respect military prowess. No matter how nice you are to them, they will eventually declare war on you if you are weak. If you are all powerful, they will cower in the corner and really never mess with you.
I've been witness to the contrary. Early on in a marathon game which I finished just a few hours ago, I ran into trouble with Hiawatha by plopping down a city a little too close to the island he was on (archipelago map) and he called me out on it right away (though I still call BS as he never became seafaring and the city was well outside of his view at the time... but I digress.) I promptly apologized and told him it wouldn't happen again. It didn't, but in terms of trade offers, he was never as friendly as some of the other leaders.

It wasn't until our two little cities had grown enough to have touching borders and we remained at peace for a while that he finally opened up to me. Shortly thereafter and over the course of some 20 turns he began to offer me a premium on my excess luxury goods, a pact of cooperation and a research agreement. The friendship lasted until the very end, when I decided domination sounded a heck of a lot better than another 700 turns to inch in on a science victory. :lol:



The individual Civs seem to have their own unique personalities, as has been suggested and even joked about in regards to past games.

Thus far, every single game I've been in with an AI Alexander, he has always mouthed off to me early on. He's just a bully. Run over a few of his units and he'll be screaming, "Uncle!"

This theory is further supported by the "random personalities" option in advanced game setup which reads, "instead of acting as they normally do, a random personality will be picked for each AI leader, making the game more unpredictable."



Overall, though, I have to agree with King's findings and theory. It backs up exactly what I have seen in my games. AI leaders seem to value honesty above all else but are in it to win it every bit as much as you are.
 
There is an element of diplomacy present in Civ 5, it just requires you to not deal in absolutes, such as outright destroying a civilization, but in playing those countries off on each other. Best way to do that is by getting involved in foreign wars, and taking side with the defenders. Support can be direct military intervention or by supporting them with gift troops, gold, or resources.

This has been my surest way to stay on top of everyone is by making sure that no one is eliminated and keeping up my trading relations with as many civ's as possible for those tasty, tasty luxury resources. Not so much the strategic ones though unless I ABSOLUTELY have to have what another civilization is in control of.

It's really about playing that puppeteer role.
 
One thing we really need to know; does razing a city piss off just the city's owner, or does it piss off everyone?

Razing becomes very necessary because of the costs of over-expansion and the inability to stop a puppet from building stuff you don't want (or to destroy the buildings they make).
 
So I wont "push this button, and turn this leveler while spinning to the left", since it doesn't have any effect at all.
Or in other words, no diplomacy gameplay. Just prepared for war with anybody, like you say. Yes, more warmongering, but civilization should have a diplomacy gameplay in my opinion. It's not panzer general.
Imo you proved my point, even if you of course can like it more without diplomacy.

I have read all your posts so far and have made a couple of observations

-You want to argue about it. thats your sole purpose here.
-You wish they showed there reactions with +1/-1 so you know where you stand
-You don't like the fact that if they are your friends they will still try to win the game.


These are all valid opinions. And I have a solution.
Go play civ4.
 
I played a game today where I had a pact of cooperation with Persia. I sent a unit up near their borders and saw that they had like 6 immortals and several archers and warriors and I was like "damn, I'm glad I'm friends with him". About 10 turns later him and another civ tag-team declared war on me. I never got a message that the pact of cooperation had expired.

Sorry, if this is the way it's going to be then take diplomacy out of the game. Don't let us make pacts if they can be broken with no repercussion, even by the AI.
 
King jason is talking about real world diplomacy here. If what said is true. Civ 5 really is excellent in this regard. I l have to test it out by myself.
 
what do pacts of cooperation even do? I can't find these explanations.
 
I have found that the Civ V Player AI cares a lot more about what happens outside of the diplomacy screen.

-If you have a resource they don't, they will be jealous of it.
-If you complete a mission or bribe a City-State, causing them to ally with you and away from that AI, they won't like you for it.
-If you build towards their borders, they won't like you using up their 'claimed' territory - moreso if there were luxuries or other resources in the building area.

I think Kaltorak wants all of the diplomacy to happen on the Diplomacy screen, and that's just not how it works with humans - aiming for similar responses from AI players is a noble goal.
 
I like the new diplomacy system. One thought to add for the original poster: City-States make pretty good allies. In my current game, Vienna and Helsinki have stood by me for thousands of years, in war and peace. They've sent me food, culture, research, and Great People, asking only favors and cash in return. Pretty good deal. :)
 
I would agree that AI choices are a lot harder to read in most cases, but there still seems to be more to it than a "roll of the dice". It seems like each different game, the civs around me have developed a "style" that seemed to depend on both randomness and who the civ was.

A few examples from my experience: a game with Catherine who definitely seemed like a die-hard militaristic do-gooder, who hated France for warmongering, and liked me until the day I attacked an innocent city-state, at which point she seemed to try to stop me, rather than conquer me. Siam played a friendly role, and routinely refused to get involved in any conflict, while attempting to ruffle as few feathers as possible. Alexander seemed cocky, hurling taunts my direction early on, but rarely proving that he had anything to back it up. The Aztecs and the Americans got into an interesting circle of betrayal with me, where, apparently, everyone made pacts of secrecy with each other, yet played nice, did a few research agreements and such, but not TOO nice, denying me vital resources, in spite of them having excess, eventually resulting in us taking turns picking on whoever happened to be "the little guy" at that moment. Lastly, the most interesting example I found, Ghandi, who, in spite of being at a rediculous disadvantage, seemed steadfast in protecting his honor, quietly accepting my dominance in the world with occasional "You shouldn't be doing that" statements, but, appropriately, non-violent resistance. His willingness to help me seemed to directly relate to how much trouble I had been causing, and even as I drove mech infantry over his pikemen and razed everything but his capitol, he refused to enter a peace deal that would reward me for what I did, and held tight to the silver mines that attracted me to his shores in the first place.

Perhaps my experiences are just random, themselves, but I think what fraxis at least TRIED to do was simulate the idea of other "players" in the game, ones who backstabbed, held grudges, made friends, and most of all, tried to win. The "obvious" diplomacy of Civ 4 (+1 you gave me a cookie, -3 you stole my dog) seems to have shifted to the NPC-style city-states. I'm not sure if this is better or worse, myself. I like the idea of life-like opponents, but I do like to have a good grasp of the world around me and, in the right situation, manipulate someone by means other than a sword at their throat.
 
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