Diplomacy is a Skill

[Victoria]

Not my words but ominously in the patch stream...

Warmongering was always the elder brother of diplomacy and the same can now be said that grievances have come along. Grievances bring along a whole new set of mechanics but also are embedded in diplomacy which is still alive and well under the hood.

Things do seem to have been quietly changing in the area, for example gifting a civ 100 gold would give you 10 diplomacy points decaying 1/turn but that has been changed to 1 every 2 turns.

So have you ever cared about diplomacy? Any thoughts on the very clear "diplomacy is a Skill" sign in the stream?

 

[Hammurabbit]

I think becoming Friends with a neighbouring civ can be a very important strategic move in the early game, as it gives you a guarantee that they wont attack you, giving you the safety you need to e.g. invest in another settler or a wonder.
I also think it's too easy in many cases.

 

[Scaramanga]

Is it meme? At first I thought it was young Obi-Wan.

 

[SxSnts9]

Diplomacy is a skill yes, but it's a skill in the same way that getting a religion is a skill. Nice to utilize, but easily ignored. I've never had a game become tougher because everyone hated me. Back in Civ IV diplomacy was a bit more important (Though less complex), but in Civ VI it can almost be ignored and you'll still have no problems if you play at a high level.

 

[Scaramanga]

I will usually use some diplomacy and casus belli so noone suspects me but war seems to be the only way to catch up and soon there are so many warmongering penalties that I will be hated no matter how nice I am.

 

[Gloompy]

If diplomacy is there, then I have no quarrels about remaining friends. But I dont make it a point to maintain good relationships given I wanna play on my own terms and do what I want. Juts like in real life. That's why im posting this from prison.

 

[Victoria]

soon there are so many warmongering penalties that I will be hated no matter how nice I am.

And I suspect this *may* be a reason for the poster/meme in the stream. It is possible to war and have alliances. You do have to be a bit more salad tossing than @Gloompy claims to do though.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I inherently dislike "diplomacy" in games with self-inconsistent incentive structures.

Victory conditions and diplomatic interactions should be aligned, not something where most opponents engaging in one does so at the expense of the other. In a game like civ the incentive to work together is largely to get ahead oneself or prevent others from winning.

As a simplification, you might cooperate to make it a two-horse race while you're one of the horses, but that partner is still an adversary ultimately. Yet Civ 6's systems/AI behavior don't acknowledge this.

 

[Caprikel]

There are many incentives to at least having a couple allies, so I always try to do that. Mali, and other trading civs especially will want allies for those trading bonuses you can get trading with allies.

 

[Hammurabbit]

I inherently dislike "diplomacy" in games with self-inconsistent incentive structures.

Victory conditions and diplomatic interactions should be aligned, not something where most opponents engaging in one does so at the expense of the other. In a game like civ the incentive to work together is largely to get ahead oneself or prevent others from winning.

As a simplification, you might cooperate to make it a two-horse race while you're one of the horses, but that partner is still an adversary ultimately. Yet Civ 6's systems/AI behavior don't acknowledge this.

I agree that this is an issue. While I do like that each leader have a flavor I think primarily they should focus on winning or stopping others from winning.

 

[Casualty of war]

Diplomacy is why when someone was recently ranting about unwinnable early rushes on Deity I was wondering why he didn't just make friends with his neighbors until he was ready to not be friends. Doesn't everyone know to make Friends with Gilgamesh the turn you meet him? Monty will adore you if you both have the same Luxuries. There's more to Civ than building units and crashing them into your neighbor.

I do miss being able to bribe people into war though.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Diplomacy is why when someone was recently ranting about unwinnable early rushes on Deity I was wondering why he didn't just make friends with his neighbors until he was ready to not be friends. Doesn't everyone know to make Friends with Gilgamesh the turn you meet him? Monty will adore you if you both have the same Luxuries. There's more to Civ than building units and crashing them into your neighbor.

I do miss being able to bribe people into war though.

Those are some of the only potential attackers that can actually create unwinnable rush scenarios too.

 

[Casualty of war]

Those are some of the only potential attackers that can actually create unwinnable rush scenarios too.

Yep, and his pet Amanitore can be handled in two ways: crank out an early District so she will love you or declare on her while her Pitati Archers are still in their infant Slinger stage. She can't upgrade them if they are standing on your doorstep.

 

[_hero_]

Imagine if diplomacy was actually important for diplomatic victories. Wouldn't that be something?

 

[DanQuayle]

Diplomacy becomes more important once you respect/fear your opponent.
Currently, the AI can at best slightly annoy you or delay your victory (no open borders, spies, etc.)

unwinnable early rushes on Deity

I have yet to see anyone posting a save with any such occurrence.
If anyone encounters a start they deem unwinnable, please post it.

 

[Tabarnak]

Not my words but ominously in the patch stream...
View attachment 526591

I think it's this guy:

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Imagine if diplomacy was actually important for diplomatic victories. Wouldn't that be something?

It doesn't make sense to vote for yourself to lose in a game, unless you don't actually lose when doing so and receive some benefit.

 

[pkaem]

I actually do. Wit lots of friends my stuff sells better and I got more effective tourism. I also get a lot more diplo favour to sell or punch through a benifical solution from time to time. Also alliances give even more diplo favour. When I war often or even seek domination, I just don't care. Military emergencys become a problem in 1 of 50 cases, otherwise they even reward you.

 

[The Technomancer]

Diplomacy becomes more important once you respect/fear your opponent.
Currently, the AI can at best slightly annoy you or delay your victory (no open borders, spies, etc.)



I have yet to see anyone posting a save with any such occurrence.
If anyone encounters a start they deem unwinnable, please post it.

I don’t have a save of it, but I had a game with a decent map start, but had Monty, Nubia, and Rome as neighbors pinning me in.

Monty rushed first, then Nubia and Rome declared a joint war shortly after I repelled Monty. Never had a chance to really get my military built up beyond a minimum defense, and I lost my cities because Nubia’s archers plus Rome’s legions against my warriors and one surviving archer means they won big.

I quit when they had my capital under siege. While the AI may or may not have actually been able to take my capital, that’s only due to AI weakness, not their position on the map, and so I have no problem calling this a loss.

 

[_hero_]

It doesn't make sense to vote for yourself to lose in a game, unless you don't actually lose when doing so and receive some benefit.

I mean that alliances adding 1 diplo favor is hardly noticeable in terms of winning a diplo victory and being a warmonger doesn't really have any real negative effect on the chances of winning one.