Discussion of methods for increasing the value of navies

[Drawmeus]

I don't think this is either an embarkation or an AI issue. There are ancillary issues that would come up if navies were more important due to poor AI, but that's not anywhere near the primary problem.

EVEN IF the AI was good with its navy, navies would be pointless, because there's simply nothing to fight over.

To increase the value of navies, two things need to happen. First, there needs to be a point to maintaining control of the seas. It has to get you a benefit. Controlling the land gets you cities, population, resources, etc. Controlling the seas gets you nearly nothing - easier access to certain bits of land. Any step in this direction would help, from a full blown colonization and sea trade model to just giving you lots of gold for blockades. If all you're fighting over is access to the less important bits of land, is it any wonder that navies are undervalued compared to the land?

Second (and not strictly necessary, but certainly important if you want to emphasize the seas), there's no real concept of controlling the seas. On land, success gets you boundaries that expand over the land from control points. On the sea, nothing. If there was some system, displayed on the map, which represented success, you could be satisfied with successes at sea. For example, we could display trade routes and give sight off them.

 

[mlund]

The first critical point would be to improve the overall system of port-based commerce. Not only should there be a bonus that stacks on top of road-connection bonuses, but there should be some sort of additional reward for having ports connecting you to friendly City States and having luxury-trades with another Civilization that have a port city on the same body of water.

Beyond that, city bombardment against ships should be much weaker and ship bombardment of cities in the era of cannons and gunpowder should be much stronger than it is. From Frigates forward ships should come with the Siege I promotion or at least a static +25% bonus against cities.

Then port cities are more valuable (thus more frequent) - and that makes blockades and naval invasions more important too.

- Marty Lund

 

[Snuffleupagus]

Lots of great ideas here. Clearly blockading needs to be more valuable, coastal cities need a boost, and bombardment from the sea of cities need a boost.

However, a roadblock to all of this is that naval combat is tactically limitted. It's just a big flat plain free for all.

How do we solve naval combat? We model after what we know works: land combat.

Add zones of control. Have certain naval units be melee and other be ranged. And, add terrain.

Yes, terrain. some ideas:

Island chains (these are small islands that cannot hold land units. They would essentially act like hills do on land. Provide defensive bonus for some units, interfere with ranged units, and take more movement to go through -maybe 3)

Stormy Seas. takes additional movement , decreases defenses, and limits visibility.

Others?

Then allow some naval upgrades that are terrain dependent. Upgrades that effect naval performance in coastal waters, ocean, island chains and stormy seas.

This would allow a lot of the tactics used on land to transfer to naval combat.

These fixes wouldn't make navies more important, but they would facilitate the other fixes which would make navies more important (discussed above, like increase commerce, trading, blockades) whatever they may be.

 

[AbbieRevo]

Was going to quote sniffles but my phone sucks so . . .

Have you played SMAC? There were sea terrain types, don't remember how they affected combat though.

What about Currents? A line of sea tiles with move bonus/penalty for moving with/against.

Could have trade impact too if you wanted to make a complex idea more complex.

Like the combat reforms being proposed here as well. Though I can't speak too much to them as I never engage in naval combat besides barbs.

 

[pspboy7]

As I said before many times, the AI is simply incapable of implementing naval tactics and strategies, because of it's complexity. Also, I love having a navy, because land battles are boring, and cause I love battleships and carriers hehe.

Actually, to re-emphasize, I would like to say that I agree that AI needs a revamp on naval implementation, but as far as the player is concerned, it's adequate enough as is IMO. I use navies when ever I can, in fact I find most times navies are more useful than artillery.