discussion on provincial borders

[DaveShack]

Originally posted by Will_518
can we not have a system of deciding province borders by production value, rather than counting tiles.
Something like: each province have between 3500 -- 500 production points.

1 shield (potential) is 1 point
1 food (potential) is 1 point
1 commerce (potential) is 1 point
1 citizen (current) is 1 point
1 point for any 1 tile which is worked on.

I like this idea. See Cracker's article improving your opening play skills which talks about assigning each square a power number.

Unfortunately, this has two problems. First, the calculations would be time-consuming and error prone, so how do we find someone willing to crank out numbers like crazy? Second, the law does not allow the number of tiles to vary, which means we would have yet another discussion on rules.

on legal discussions

 

[Cyc]

Originally posted by Will_518
From Dave's maps i see that most of the first 2 provinces are just jungle or derset. Shouldn't we give less productive provinces like that more land; and more productive one should have less land area, like the mysical third province which might have lots of grassland, with iron and wine.

can we not have a system of deciding province borders by production value, rather than counting tiles.
Something like: each province have between 3500 -- 500 production points.

1 shield (potential) is 1 point
1 food (potential) is 1 point
1 commerce (potential) is 1 point
1 citizen (current) is 1 point
1 point for any 1 tile which is worked on.

Will518, not only will changing this process be time-consuming in that you would have to spend too much time redesigning your new system to please enough people to get it ratified, you'd also have to remove a Section of the CoL concerning one of the rights of the Citizens of Fanatika. Specifically, CoL Section C.2.

2. The Congress (Citizens)
a. Comprised of all registered citizens of Fanatika.
b. Provincial borders shall be determined and approved
by the Congress.
1. A province should contain no more than
approximately 126 tiles

 

[DaveShack]

A poll to determine the borders of Berry province has been created.

 

[truckingpete]

What happens if another Civ puts a city in those boarder?? Then we have to make the boders smaller..we should wait unit we settle there..

 

[DaveShack]

Originally posted by truckingpete
What happens if another Civ puts a city in those boarder?? Then we have to make the boders smaller..we should wait unit we settle there..

That is a good question. In the past (prior demogames) we've run into problems with our settlement getting ahead of the provinces, and it became unclear which province certain cities should belong to. It even got to the point of two governors fighting over a couple of cities. The reaction to those problems was to write a law that provinces should be defined ahead of expansion.

If we fail to acquire land which was defined for a province so that it becomes too small, then a redistricting would be called for. Or we could attack and take the land we want...

 

[Cyc]

1. truckingpete, if someone places a city within our borders, it will soon become ours, one way or another. Cultural flip, by force, or some other means.

2. DS, I've just come from your poll on this issue and people are whining about the caostal tiles not being included within the borders. The initial tile count for tiles within a Province is based on land tiles. This is supposed to be common knowledge. Apparently many of the Citizens served by your Internal Affairs Dept. are unaware of this. Maybe the IA Dept. should inform them of this.

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by DaveShack

Second, the law does not allow the number of tiles to vary, which means we would have yet another discussion on rules.

Note - the section reads "... approximately 126 tiles". The law allows a slight amount of variation, probably no more than 3-5 tiles max variation.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Cyc]

Originally posted by ravensfire


Note - the section reads "... approximately 126 tiles". The law allows a slight amount of variation, probably no more than 3-5 tiles max variation.

-- Ravensfire

Actually with it stating "1. A province should contain no more than
approximately 126 tiles.", it too is drifting away from the English we all know and love, and heading for Political Rhetoric (have we made that a language yet, or is that just replacing English?)

The issue that needs to be discussed is "LAND" tiles. The first Province is surrounded by water, therefore we definitely should adhere to the true intent of the Law and stick with only Land tiles for the initial count of tiles in a Province.

 

[DaveShack]

Originally posted by Cyc


Actually with it stating "1. A province should contain no more than
approximately 126 tiles.",

The issue that needs to be discussed is "LAND" tiles.

Let's make this very simple. It doesn't even need to be changed, if you will allow a creative interpretation which sticks with the original intent. If you absolutely must have it changed, then this will do what is needed without altering the meaning of the current law.

1.  A province should contain no more than approximately 126 [b]land[/b] tiles.
  a.  Any number of water tiles may be included for aesthetic purposes.
  b.  Water tiles do not count toward the 126 tile limit.

 

[Cyc]

If you want to put a whimpy law like that in our three books, go ahead. Things like that will show the true nature of Fanaticans.

The water tiles will accompany any coastal tiles included in the "Land Tile" borders. Putting a Law in like that is really funny. I think we deserve that that one.

 

[DaveShack]

Originally posted by Cyc
The water tiles will accompany any coastal tiles included in the "Land Tile" borders.

Are you defining coastal to be the land tiles which border the water, or the lightest blue water tiles which border the land? "Coastal" squares are the water ones. The citizens who don't like your border proposal, and the 126 tile rule, are saying that the water squares which are workable should be included within the lines on the map which represent the borders. I didn't see anyone ask to include them in the count of tiles, just to extend the lines to show what may be workable tiles.

This gives an advantage to a province with beachfront property vs. one which is landlocked, but it will not increase the number of towns per province excessively, which is what we're trying to avoid anyway.

 

[Cyc]

Originally posted by DaveShack


Are you defining coastal to be the land tiles which border the water, or the lightest blue water tiles which border the land? "Coastal" squares are the water ones. The citizens who don't like your border proposal, and the 126 tile rule, are saying that the water squares which are workable should be included within the lines on the map which represent the borders. I didn't see anyone ask to include them in the count of tiles, just to extend the lines to show what may be workable tiles.

This gives an advantage to a province with beachfront property vs. one which is landlocked, but it will not increase the number of towns per province excessively, which is what we're trying to avoid anyway.

You're right, DS. When I said in my above statement I meant the LAND tiles next to the WATER tiles. Eventually the WATER tiles next to the LAND tiles will become part of the Province as any Coastal cities placed on LAMD tiles next to the WATER tiles will naturally include them, therefore any redistricting should include the two WATER tiles next to any LAND tiles.

But the tile count for Provincial Borders should only be for LAND tiles. By the way this rocket science method of determining Provincial borders would also leave out any Lakes within the Provincial borders.

And the part where you say you didn't see anyone ask to include WATER tiles in the tile count of the Provincial borders is pretty useless. Why would we add the WATER tiles to the Provincial borderlines if we're not going to include them in the tile count. That makes NO sense.

 

[ravensfire]

Citizens,

The informational poll I tossed out on this is showing a strong preference for land only tile counts. It's just about a day away from closing, with most people having voted.

I suggest we again create a border proposal, using only land tiles, and poll it. As the last proposal failed, hopefully we will come up with something different.

While we are at it, we might want to create 2 or 3 provinces - we've got a fair amount of territory explored.

-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

Proposal for 2 provinces:

Sorry 'bout the width, but we're not exactly a tightly packed nation ...

-- Ravensfire

 

[donsig]

I love this proposal - it has two, count 'em TWO, provinces! I vote 'yes'.

 

[Rik Meleet]

I don't like it; they are ugly. I'm going to give province boundaries a shot.

soon posting a map-proposal here

 

[Cyc]

Works for me too. They both kind of remind me of Normandy Province of DG1, without the Jungle, of course.

When were you planning on drawing in the southern borderline for Berry Province?

 

[Rik Meleet]

My proposal:

The province in which Deux Rivières is situated is hard to determine it's southern border; fog. The Northern Province has exactly 126 tiles (+/- a few due to count-errors.

 

[truckingpete]

I like Rik's provincie idea...

But what about that other city that's not in the boarders??
Should that be in one or is that going to be a different one??

 

[Cyc]