Disputed Territory?

[Corvex]

I'm not sure how this idea could be implemented, but I think that when civs are expanding, certain teritories should fall into dispute between them. If either of the civs put any troops into this territory, it will hurt relations with their neighbours (and settling here is likely to provoke a war). There should also be mechanisms for resolving disputes, i.e; ceding the territory or consenting to some kind of 'joint rule' (both civs can move through it freely and profit from any resources present).
A similar idea: when territory is lost by one civ to another in a war, the losing civ should be particularly interested in recapturing it if war breaks out again.

 

[Swiss Bezerker]

I dont really think that is a good Idea,it would cause 2 many problems

 

[Portuguese]

or there could be a special type of war

border war, for example, where you could kill units and position your units in enemy territory, but not conquer cities, what would result in a traditional war.

just a thought...

 

[sir_schwick]

I think all wars should involve territory definitions. These definitions are made by the AI/Players, basically you 'paint' the territory you claim for your empire. Of course when two or more players claim the same territory, one of these things must happen:

1) They ignore the issue and what territory(including cities) you can control/collect from is dictated by military presence.
2) A side cedes the territory to the other side.
3) War!

You can claim the whole world, but do not expect to keep it very long. Of course then reputation needs to be reworked, but that was inevitable anyway.

A good real life example is Taiwan. The Chinese claim its Republic of China's territory, Taiwan claims it is not.

 

[mastertyguy]

Territory cxould be able to "flip", too. If there is high pressure, a square can change hands. And entering ennemy territory would be like a declaration of war.

 

[bjblue]

thats a great idea. You could plant markers to "claim" individual squares. You could name them if you like. If they are incorporated into another empire you would get a message like " the egyptians have claimed ownership over squares 2 and 4. do you wish to...
"forget it..we never wanted them anyway"
"lodge a formal protest with the egyptian government"
"Damn them! Lets fight them for it"

If you chose forget it...they get the land and no complaints
If you lodge a protest..the land reverts to "disputed" and their attitude towards you drops off. If you move troops there...it gets worse but on the plus side the longer you have troops there the more likely it is the squares revert to your control...if you build cities there you get a mixed population...like first pop is yours..second is theirs..third yours etc...so WW when fighting them would be bad...and MAJOR rep hit if you build cities too.
If you chose to fight over the territory less WW and less rep hit.
You could then "give away" land (rather than cities) as part of peace treaties or even sell it (like the luisianna purchase).

 

[mastertyguy]

I like your idea, bjblue. what would also be interresting is that you can't see all the squares in your claimed territory. They would be yours, but you don't know what is actually going in your territory on x island, or y desert. There could be as sort of influence, different than for city flips, deciding, when a civ claims a square near another, there is a chance for it to become the second's territory.

 

[Hyronymus]

Why shouldn't be able to see the claims the other civs make on your territory? I quite like the idea nevertheless but I think it needs some more tweakin. You should be able to see other civ's claims after researching Democracy i.e.. Another thing is a limit on which civ's can claim your territory. I suggest only civ's [with at least 1 city] on the same continent as your empire should be able to claim territory UNLESS you kicked them off of 'your' continent earlier, forcing them to live on elsewhere.

 

[bjblue]

I agree there would have to be some sort of control over what lands can be claimed and where. it would be silly if on the first turn you could just claim the whole planet. How about you could claim something like 1 square per turn and it must be outsied of any borders. Once cultural influence starts to expand then there would start to be disputes. If you want to claim land thats already within another empires territory it would have to be directly adjacent to your border or was once within your territory. You could then claim ownership of lands lost in battle...whilst the other side maintains control. these lands would then be classed as "occupied".

 

[sir_schwick]

it would be silly if on the first turn you could just claim the whole planet.

That would not be silly at all, IMHO. However the 'legitimacy' of such claims would be extremely low without you having cultural influence there(now culture overlaps instead of competes), treaty, or military force.

 

[garric]

You forget that having a random piece of land doesn't really help you unless its next to a city, or if there's a resource there.

 

[Dachs]

It gets you a little closer to that Domination win...

 

[sir_schwick]

Of course we would have to redefine 'domination' victory.

You forget that having a random piece of land doesn't really help you unless its next to a city, or if there's a resource there.

Correctomundo. Claim the world, but only get to use 1/100th of it. China 'claims' Taiwan is still part of the People's Republic of China, but practical reality would say otherwise.

 

[Dachs]

Argh, reality (in the form of sir_schwick) always ruins my plans

It'd just be more realistic (something that happens in the real world). Plus, that small chunk of territory can serve as that much more of a jump-off point for your invasion of the enemy lands.

 

[sir_schwick]

I like this idea too, my points are saying that people worried about ridiculous exploits should not worry. Common sense would rule out the most ridiculous uses of a 'name your own territory' system.

 

[CivCrawler]

'Disputed Terriotory' a interesting Idea... Here are my 2 cents...

Have overlapping culture influences than rigid boundaries. These overlapping may disappear once the civilization is culturally strong/weak compared to rival.

If the cultural dominance on that tile is 70/30 then it becomes the property of stronger civ. Any variations from 70/30 to 30/70 like 50/50 makes it disputed.
Usually nations may not worry much with overlapping culture boundaries,specially if the overlapping territory is dessert or empty ocean tile.
If a disputed tile has resource on it (say rubber). both civs don't get any benefits from it unless that tile is culturally won or by 'claiming it'.

To claim, we should be able to move any unit over it & have a option "Claim this Region". This would inturn raise alarm at rival civilization immediately. As suggested earlier have Ignore/negotiate/fight options.It's possible that rival may agree to relinquish his claims on that tile in return for sum of money/tech. Once it is traded it should be permanent i.e. no expiry after 20 turns etc..

 

[Che Guava]

I like the ideas being tossed around here. Here's what I think:

(1) Cultural boundaries are the real zones of control, just like in civIII. ANything going on in them you can see, manipulate, etc....

(2) political borders: you can claim whatever you like, but it won't do a damn thing except give you a pretext for going to war 'ligitimately'. THe closer the land is to your territory, the more legitimate the world sees your claim on it.

(3) Overlapping: cultural borders cannot overlap (this is your sphere of influence after all!) but political boundaries can. If you want to claim the land the entire Zulu nation occupies, you can, but don't expect the world to beleive it....

 

[RandomInsanity]

one problem though is that it would be too hard to contain ai players. Just claim land at choke points or just around their borders and they wouldn't be able to expand without declaring war on you
unless other civ's units are able to pass through these false claims of land, but then it wouldn't make much sense to put this in anyways
I still like the idea though

 

[Corvex]

I think that concern about all of yoour neighbours being at war with you should be sufficient disincentive not to limit their expansion too much (especially if they step-up the AI). Still, it could be a useful tool for the domination of weaker states (including your own, if you're not careful)

 

[VWClaymore]

I've come up with three possible stipulations for being able to claim territory:

1) you must have one of your units in the territory, at least, preferrably
2) you must claim a territory with a special type of unit such as a scout, explorer (then perhaps they might be worth producing), great leader, worker, and/or settlers - I'm not sure which would be best to use for this, but it would have to be limited.
3) the claimed territory must be within a certain distance from one of your cities, colonies, or a garrisoned fort/barricade. This would make it a bit more more difficult to claim territory. Perhaps have a ten/five/three space distance from cities/colonies/garrisoned fort respectively.

Then once you hold this territory it remains yours unless you:

1) sell/give it to a rival nation,
2) another nations culture supercedes your claim,
2) it is militarily seized by a rival nation - causing war, or
3) it is abandoned to a rival nation - avoiding war.

This does make it fairly easy to capture and maintain enemy territory, but thats just another factor I think would limit liberal land claims. I think it would be interesting to allow culturally held to be militarily captured without taking the rival city. Perhaps cultural territory could be captured if an enemy nation leaves a garrison on the territory for 3-5? turns, but if all military units leave, the area immediately reverts back to the culturally dominant nation. That was a it would be possible to resources near your border without having to actually capture an enemy city - of course you'd have to declare war to do this, but the effect could last after a peace had been negotiated as long as you retain your military presence. Maybe not the greatest idea, just trying to throw ideas around.