Djinn suggestions

[cyther]

The Djinn is far to weak for a summon requiering channeling three and I doubt that anyone really uses them because with dispell magic which allows us to change any mana node.

-Allow the Djinn to keep their +1 Aff. for ordinary mana but allow them to have +2 Aff. for metamagic mana

This would actually make the summon usefull in the late game and it would make the metamagic mana that the Ammurites start with usefull and to just be in there because their patron god is Oghma.
Also perhaps give them some sort of spell that increases duration at some cost. (Strength, Dispell a node, ect.)

 

[Justicar333]

I agree that the Djinn needs something. Every game I've played that had the ability to summon these creatures, there was always something else better available.

While a combat buff would be nice, could always take a different approach. Perhaps give them a flavour buff, some spell casting ability. Djinn claim to fame has always been granting wishes, usually with dire results. Perhaps a spell similar to the Inernal Grimorie? From awful to very good random results. At least assuming, gave up using that thing long ago, chance of spector wasn't worth nuking my immortal vampire lord.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Here's the key to strong Djinn. The more mana nodes you have, the more strength your Djinn will have. Check the pedia. Mana affinity: +1. That means for every mana node you have or mana you recieve as tribute, it gains 1 strength. That really begins to add up.

 

[xienwolf]

Since the idea behind the Djinn was to provide a high end summon which rewards non-specialization, I like that any tweaks to the power of it follows suit. Thus having a summoned Djinn have a chance to gain Spell Spheres coresponding to your current Mana Types available would be quite sweet.

I'd say have it be a random 0-10 check:

• 0-3, nothing happens, you get the current Djinn.
• 4-6, you get a Djinn with 1 lower than normal Strength, and Rank 1 spells in all areas you have 1 or more mana sources.
• 7-8 you get a Djinn with 2 lower strength and a 50% chance per Mana Type you have to start with the rank 2 spells.
• 9 means that the Djinn has 0 Strength, but starts with Twincast & Spellstaff Promotions, and a 33% Chance per Mana Type to start with Rank 3 Spells in all available types.
• On a 10 you get a Full strength Djinn with the same spell access as all earlier listed types.

Something like that could be a bit more "chaotic" than desired for Metamagic, since it relies on random chance. But it sure could make for some worthwhile Djinn pops.

 

[westamastaflash]

Wasn't there just a thread on this, except the OP was saying that djinn were too strong? I think that djinn are good for when you have lots of different types of mana

 

[Pyr0mancer]

Djinns' strength mainly depends on whether Vassal States is on or off. With Vassal states on, it's very easy to get a ton of various unchangeable mana, making Djinns a match for any other summon. 3 per conquered enemy, plus shrine mana, plus your own palace mana, plus nodes, easily yields 20+ strength Djinns. On the other hand, if you've got Vassal States off, then Djinns become far less useful. Without stolen palace mana Djinns rarely top maybe a dozen strength, making them inferior to all other level 3 summons.

Djinns don't reward non-specialization so much as provide some benefit to nonspecialized mana, especially shrine and palace mana. As far as Djinns are concerned, all mana is equal, so specialization is still better unless you happen to be specializing in a sphere that your enemies have resistance to.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Wasn't there just a thread on this, except the OP was saying that djinn were too strong? I think that djinn are good for when you have lots of different types of mana

That's wat I meant. Mana, mana, and more mana is the key to strong Djinn.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

That's wat I meant. Mana, mana, and more mana is the key to strong Djinn.

We know how affinity works. The point of the argument is that by the time you have enough mana to make the Djinn useful, you will probably have a Domination victory or such a large empire/army you can destroy everyone.

I'd like Djinns to be permenant and give them acsess to random level 1 & 2 spells, even if you do not own the mana type.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Well, here's the thing. Most people don't use level 3 summons anyway, for the reason you suggested. And if you find it so easy, up the difficulty. If you can't anymore, well, guess wat? You're one of the rare people who's a gamin genius (or has had way too much time on this game ).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I quite enjoy making Djinn's be unitcombat_adept and have Arcane, Channeling 1, & Channeling 2. That means they can cast learn all mage spells, but could not summon more of themselves (which could cause a spinlock if the AI keeps trying to summon more). Of course, it is unlikely that a Djinn will have the duration needed to actually learn new spells, but having this unitcombat and the channeling promotions mean they do get the free sphere promotions based on the mana you possess, just like mages do. (This is similar to what xienwolf suggested, but his way would be very difficult to code whereas mine requires only very minor xml changes.)

I'm thinking that is quite thematically appropriate, since the civilopedia says that the only reason they are not extremely powerful casters is that they won't devote the time to study what they could do with all that mana they can channel. Plus, it is just boring for all the summons to be used purely for their brute strength, even strength from affinity. No matter how much affinity you would give them I don't think it would be as interesting as letting the meta magic summon use magic.



(Hmm...I just realized that since the Tower of Mastery gives out Channeling 3 to units in the city in my version that Djinni summoned in this city would be able to cause such a spinlock, at least if you have more than 4 Metamagic Mana. I'm thinking that is a rare enough case not to worry about.)




(I actually also gave them 2 Metamagic affinity and reduced their base strength to 0, but I consider letting them learn mage spells to be a much better change. I actually boosted every summon in the game in some way or another.)



In my modmod, I'm having all the Dimensional Sphere promotions boost the duration of the caster's summons. That is one of the main reasons I need to have Xienwolf's XML modcomp included. I'm also thinking that I'll include Metamagic/Dimensional cross-sphere spells to increase the duration of your summons and decrease the duration of nearby rival summons.

(I'm also thinking that I might make most of the summons into cross-sphere spells requiring Dimensional 1 and the second level of the appropriate sphere. That way we would see them more often, and Archmages could be given more interesting spells-including spells that can kill directly. Giving Archers, Siege, and Naval units ranged attacks makes magic a little less necessary, so I think we can afford to make it more powerful too.)


(Also, in my version all levels of spell sphere require the mana. I'm thinking of making the spells themselves require the mana too. )

 

[Ecofarm]

Meta 2 might be the best spell in the game. Meta 3 can lag.

Garrison mage = Mind1 (inspiration), Spirit2 (courage - perm, hope), and Death (become lich, wraiths).

Support mage = Body2 (Haste, Regen), Life 1 (sanctify)...

War archmage = Mind3 domination, Chaos3 wonder or Shadow3 mistforms etc...

Home archmage = Nature3 (vitalize), Body3 (flesh golems)...

Need a water-walker? Coming right up! Loyalty to avoid charm? BRT! Anything you need, you let us know...

Ahh, the possibilities (and security) with a single node and Meta 2

If meta had flying reindeer, it would still be way better than Santa. He's once a year; dispel is on demand. If Santa came to my civ when I already had a meta node, I'd slap him around and send him on his way.

If anything, make dispel tier 3 and then djinns are ok (at tier 2), right?

 

[thomas.berubeg]

while we're at it... why not give Djinn unique names you know, things like bartmaues, and etc...

 

[Blackmantle]

@ Ecofarm: agree + there is a solid Synergy between liberal use of Metamagic 2 and Metamagic 3 Promotion.


@ Topic: Sure Finetuning gives a bit more of power, but flexibility and ease + the passive effect of the metamagic-promotions are worth the effort.

Usually Djinns are "windfall" gains anyways from upgrading from Metamagic 2 (1 Promotion with added benefits besides the summon are not all that pricey). So i don't think that Metamagic 3 Promotion is to weak overall.
Most of the time if! i have a good number of Tier 3 summons my Tier 3 Mage has Metamagic 3 + an Elemental Sphere 3/ Shadow 3/ Chaos 3 or something like that. So i nearly always have the choice (sometimes 6/7/8 Points of death-strength just don't cut it in comparison to 2 Holy + 1 Fire + ...) until the djinns are really powerful / not to feasibly match by other any summon.

Plus the Djinns i have are often Power 10+ but thats also due to me founding or conqering 3 + Religions / Shrines most games (not so hard with sidar). And sometimes in lategame their power is beyond 20 at which point they rival Dragons. Without any need to focus on one Sort of Mana. But that might not work for anyone / any civ.

So yay to Metamagic 3 for me (if just for convenience.).
But they could fly + have their base-speed reduced by 1... (if thats not to much of an infringement on Air / Balance.)

 

[rocklikeafool]

Ya know, the only magic spheres I've used a lot are death and Chaos. Of course, I do sometimes select promotions other spheres of magic, a. k. a. Law I, simply because that's what mana comes with my palace and I don't have a death node or a chaos node yet. I like Death cuz it has low-mid permanent summon with the Skeleton and a mid level non-permanent summon with the Wraith. I've also used Body a lot for regeneration and the Flesh Golems. But most I don't use most of the spheres of magic.

Anyone else seem to only use two or three spheres of magic? Or is it jus me? Jus curious, ya know.

P. S.: If you ever play multiplayer gainst me, you'll find holy damage is your best friend. LOL! Jus a tip. But plz don't overdo it. And I will use Scrouge a lot too. So, you'll take heavy losses.

 

[hbar]

I've only used Djinns when I play the Amurites, but in those games I rush for as many different mana as I can get for the cave of ancestor bonus. In that case, the "more powerful" summons (any with +2 affinity, for example) don't do me a whole lot of good. On the other hand, Djinns are really only useful for the Amurites, because they are the only race to have an incentive to go for many different manas as opposed to spamming one or two.

I like the idea of them being able to cast - seems more in line with what they are.

 

[rocklikeafool]

I've only used Djinns when I play the Amurites, but in those games I rush for as many different mana as I can get for the cave of ancestor bonus. In that case, the "more powerful" summons (any with +2 affinity, for example) don't do me a whole lot of good. On the other hand, Djinns are really only useful for the Amurites, because they are the only race to have an incentive to go for many different manas as opposed to spamming one or two.

I hear all that, man. And, for the most part, I do the same.

I like the idea of them being able to cast - seems more in line with what they are.

True. Tho, I do think they should only last 1 turn, as most summons do with Summonin trait (which may not even be in FfH; it's been so long since I've played any leaders speciallizin in magic). I really like the Summonin trait. Longer summons are always cool...Anyway...
Or, alternatively, there could be a limit on how many Djinns can be summoned. Say, you can only summon 5. And once a specific caster has summoned a Djinn, that caster cannot summon another Djinn til the summoned one dies. That would prevent someone from havin like 20 Djinns runnin round and summonin more.

 

[Blackmantle]

@ hbar: i guess you got the affinity of djinns wrong (i assume getting from your description).

They don't get 1 Power for each type of mana you own but for each mana resource independently of type. (The type in question only determines what type of strength said djinn gets. So with 3 death Nodes the Djinn gets +3 death strength and so on...)
So even if you streamline your nodes to only 2 or 3 Types (which makes a lot of sense for getting high tier promotions without spending Levels which i do very often.) and changing those to 2 or 3 other Types the Djinns power is the same as if you whould have many different types.
So if you have 19 mana (of whatever Type from whatever source) your djinns will have a power of 20.


Sun 3 Summon / Yvain / Chalid are a real exeption though. I have to admit. Afinity 2 or Afinity 1 + Metal Weapons is really much. But should you streamline your nodes to another type to do something else you don't have strong summons during! that change. (There is no real problem besides that more or less small gap and convenience. But i don't find convenience a small thing exactely.)

Also i belive Sun 3 is the only regular summon with an Affinity above one (albeit them having a way higher base strength compared to djinns and/or other nice abilities). Or am i wrong?

 

[rocklikeafool]

I think you're right. It sounds right anyway.

 

[hbar]

@ hbar: i guess you got the affinity of djinns wrong (i assume getting from your description).

Yeah, I think I misspoke. But my point remains - if you are going to spread out your mana, there is only one summon that takes advantage of it - hence Djinns are geared towards Amurites and no one else.

Here's a radical departure - off the top of my head and prolly unbalanced - why not make meta III like lichdom? Turn your archmage into a Djinn? Maybe have it be stuck with the spells it has at the time, but make up for it with increased strength (affinities).

You'd need another meta III spell for once you have your 4 Djinns, but there is certainly no lack of cool spell ideas on this forum. Reason I brought it up is I always have a bunch of high-level wizards sitting around as the amurites, waiting for an archmage to die so they get their chance. Seems that a magocracy sould have more that one way to be a badass spellcaster.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Here's a radical departure - off the top of my head and prolly unbalanced - why not make meta III like lichdom? Turn your archmage into a Djinn? Maybe have it be stuck with the spells it has at the time, but make up for it with increased strength (affinities).

Hmm...that sounds kinda cool. It could be done usin the same mechanic as Lichdom. So, yeah, it'd be pretty easy.

You'd need another meta III spell for once you have your 4 Djinns, but there is certainly no lack of cool spell ideas on this forum. Reason I brought it up is I always have a bunch of high-level wizards sitting around as the amurites, waiting for an archmage to die so they get their chance. Seems that a magocracy sould have more that one way to be a badass spellcaster.

I don't unnerstand why you'd need nother spell. There is no National Limit on Djinns; I jus checked the pedia on it. If there's some other reason, plz explain it to me.