Do civs start as athiest or "pagan?"

[Afgnwrlrd]

There seems some confusion on this point. Some say "civs that don't have a religion yet must be athiest." Others say "atheism didn't exist even before civilization, civs should start in a sort of "pagan" religion."

Personally I would side with the latter. Humans have historically turned to religion when faced with the unknown, and for a large part still do. It is only as we enter a new age of knowlege can we reason our way to a non-supernatural conclusion, something impossible for ancient agriculturalists.

 

[Yusaku Jon III]

I'm in agreement here. I haven't even heard of a known culture that didn't have a spiritual tradition; look at the comparisons made between modern "primitive" cultures and some of the evidence provided by the prehistoric cultures. At least most of the ancient civilizations might've traced their origins to animistic or shamanistic traditions.

Atheists might've existed, however, but not as an organized "religion" until the advent of open religious tolerance that preceded the industrialization of the West (Europe and America) and led to the diminishing influence of fundamentalist religious authority. Nowadays, there seems to be a strong push for the "religion of Atheism" to force all traditional religious influences out of public life -- but that is the matter for a debate elsewhere.

Back to the point, I agree that most civilizations started out with a polytheistic "pagan" religion (if not simpler animistic or shamanistic traditions) and later converted to the modern world religions that we see named in the Civ games.

 

[josephstalin]

Civilizations start in "Primitivism" religion type, where I guess you don't have a concrete religion, but "pagan". Then, if you discover assigned tech you can switch to another religion and change religious status in government. I did not think that this was said officially, but it makes sense logically.

 

[Mellian]

It is only in the modern people started converting to the belief of Science. I don't care what people say, but there many out there who treat science almost religiously, and some of them can bepretty fanatical about it.


-mellian

 

[Tiger_Nation]

Early indians didn't have any religion before hinduism I understand

 

[Avayaman]

i would have to go with paganism... atheism is a deliberate choice not to belong to a certain religion... primitive people didn't have/make that choice yet... they're pagans

 

[Dida]

it is not fair to label paganism as 'premitive'. I think christianity is more premitive than paganism, even though christianity flourished at a time later than paganism did.

 

[Lockesdonkey]

it is not fair to label paganism as 'premitive'. I think christianity is more premitive than paganism, even though christianity flourished at a time later than paganism did.

How so? Where's the complex pagan moral code? Where are the pagan guidelines on how to live a good life? How can paganism possible come to terms with reason, unless you dispose of the gods and their supposed powers? Unless of course by paganism you mean the complex polytheism of the Egyptians, Greeks and Indians, in which case no, it is NOT primitive, but then Hinduism is supposed to represent all these.

Of course, if game Hinduism represents modern Hinduism, then Hinduism is not polytheistic but pantheistic; God isn't in everything (that's animism, and that SHOULD be the "primitive" faith), He is everything.

 

[Hyena]

I feel that the civs in the game start off believing whatever they feel like individually, until some organized religion comes along and changes that. Whether what they believe is Atheism, Paganism, or something else entirely, is up to each one of those population points and units. Ciao.

 

[Wolfwood]

Hmmm... I'm a bit confused here by the terminology. What do we mean by "paganism"? I thought that was a derogative word used by the members of one religious sect of all the other religions...

 

[CrazyMrLeo]

It was my understanding that Paganism is a catch-all term for religious beliefs that aren't a part of any major religion.

 

[Leprechaune]

Pagan [pa'gan] n - a heathen; one who has no religion.
Atheist [A'theist] n - one who disbelieves in the existence of God.

So in order to be an Atheist you would have to be surrounded in an existing belief of a God...

 

[Atrebates]

Pagan [pa'gan] n - a heathen; one who has no religion.

A corruption of the original pagan from 0AD , which was a word for faiths that believed in lots of gods (all those nasty Celts and Norsemen )
Anyway, the point to remember is that your civ begins with roads and farming, it is not uber-primitive, if History is any sort of a guide then some form of basic religion will be present, Paganism is as good a name as any.

 

[Leprechaune]

A corruption of the original pagan from 0AD , which was a word for faiths that believed in lots of gods (all those nasty Celts and Norsemen )
Anyway, the point to remember is that your civ begins with roads and farming, it is not uber-primitive, if History is any sort of a guide then some form of basic religion will be present, Paganism is as good a name as any.

OR... Just to make an argument for no good reason...

Would that then mean that since your "CIVILIZATION" is surrounded by basic religions but is not commited to any ONE... That your "CIVILIZATION" as a whole is therefor Atheistic because they don't believe in a "GOD" as a whole. Some members of your civ may be pagans but as a "CIVILIZATION" they are Atheist in general.???

 

[Atrebates]

nah, all cultural 'ancient' tribes had a religion, not specifically enforced (generally) but the common religion nevertheless.
By the very virtue of early paganism allowing considerable deviation (tribes often worshipped local deities with equal reverance as the great gods) it encompasses your entire civ.

 

[Leprechaune]

That could be considered the difference though...

It's much like a government declaring a nation officially of a specific religion. Just like nations have national languages (English and French for Canada) they also have declared religions in many cases. Not long ago Canada was publicly accepted as a "Christian Nation" which has since changed.

So to say that a civilization IS pagan because the people have some scattered religions is like saying a civilization is of some specific sexual orientation because it has many members who partake in that lifestyle. Untill it's a nationaly accepted or ENFORCED and a declared religious edict, (Such as would be the case in the game by making the researching and accepting a discovery) a civilization would as a combined body of peoples or as difined by a supreme ruler COULD be considered Atheistic.

 

[Kyriakos]

imo they all should start as pagan. the most probable thing is that ancient men had a very blurry and fiercely more individualistic spiritual belief, which they neither had the ability of, nor the real urge perhaps, to organise and share with one another. Perhaps a pagan religion is slighly more organised than this, but then again the civ games dont start exactly in the cave-age, but in the settling age, so pagan is a good choice.

 

[Jaybe]

I vote for you all harping on a matter of symantics. Different people had varying degrees of belief and disbelief in what their parents and society were teaching them, and coming up with belief systems of their own.

 

[Markus6]

Atheism is seen as the belief that there is no God. So a civ with a mixture of religions could never be classified as atheist as they do believe in gods, just not necessarily the same ones as each other.

 

[Darwin420]

I think pagan is the wrong word. In our modern times, Page literally means (and yes, I know it's a corruption of the original meaning) non-Christian .. It was used derogatively by the Christians to define any who did not believe as they did (as an historical sidenote, the "pagans" gave as good as they got, and used the term "sheep" to define Christians as a derogatory remark)

I think going with Primitivism is the best way, since that term encompasses any number of ancient beliefs, not just Earth-based "pagan" religious systems. And, for matter of record, so-called Pagan beliefs do teach strong moral pathways (most people have heard of "the rule of three") about being good over evil; almost every "pagan" belief is very pacifistic, though war to protect oneself was accepted. And, historically speaking, the modent Monotheistic religions have taken their basics off of the Polytheistic "pagan" beliefs (best example: the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost = the Mother, the Babe, and the Crone(old lady))... this further exemplifies that many major monotheistic beliefs did indeed stem from polytheistic belief systems. Of course, that IS a generalization, and does not cover EVERY area of the world. (but, it's not a completely western occurance)