[NFP] Do you find it weird that Entertainment Complex takes a district slot?

[hhhhhh]

(Every case of EC below shall be read as Entertainment Complex or Water Park.)

Entertainment Complex has been not very useful throughout the history of the game - people may build it if they want to build Colosseum, and that's about it. One of the major criticism is you just cannot allocate your precious district slot to EC, which is more or less useless. This is true even after EC provide +2 to theatre squares - if you build an EC then your 10 population city will function like a 7-pop one, with effectively only 3 speciality districts.

What if EC become like Aqueduct, an auxiliary district, which you can build to alleviate some amenity problem, but doesn't take your district slot. That way it won't be strong but at least some people may consider build it. e.g. an EC-TS-CityCenter triangle will get you a +3 Theater Square while only take one of your district slot. And if they change EC so that the base production cost is 36 instead of 54 (so it's the same as Aqueduct, instead of speciality districts), it will be much better.

To me, "Speciality District" should mean something that gives Great Person Points, with the exception of Gov. Plaza (and now Diplomatic Quarter too). Having EC taking up district slot is simply weird.

Oh yeah Aerodrome also take up district slot, and I don't think it's a successful design. This idea on reddit of replacing it by transportation hub is cool. Or maybe it should generate some Great Engineer Points?

 

[8housesofelixir]

Districts that don't have specialist slots but still count into the population-based district limits is something I cannot really understand.

Besides don't count it as a "district", I would also suggest give specialist slots to EC for extra gold/amenities etc. (Although I am really not sure the devs will revisit the EC again or not.)

 

[Myomoto]

Yea, EC has never felt like a fully formed district to me. It doesn't have any adjacency yields, no specialist slots, no great person points. It generates 1 amenity no matter where it's built, that's it. Ok, I guess it also gives +1 appeal to surrounding tiles - which is like relevant for 5 civs in the game and potentially some very late game national park/seaside resort shenanigans.

It feels like a terrible tile improvement, with the option for including a few buildings, that honestly also have lack lustre yields. The arena is +1 culture per turn and +1 amenity? At least have it give some kind of bonus to horses improved with a pasture? Or provide some kind of military bonus?

Much later in the game, when the zoo and the stadium becomes available, I can kind of see the appeal of the district, but at the time when it unlocks, it is really just not that interesting to build - if that's the point, no problem. It can be a 'penalty' district you have to build to maintain amenities. Only the problem is that amenities are still kind of useless

Edit: I just checked, the EC also doesn't add any yields to internal trade routes it seems. The water park seems to add +1 food, however.

 

[Datgingah]

I had a proposal that the entertainment district buildings should provide bonuses to cities that are happy. I.e. the arena would provide 2.5% bonus yields if happy, and 5% bonus yields if ecstatic. This could stack for each of the three buildings as well, resulting in tall ecstatic cities gaining 15% extra yields, on top of the normal ecstatic bonus.

Though for this to work, the district itself might want some adjacency bonuses that provide amenities. I have always thought luxuries, theater squares, and wonders would be perfect for that, providing 1 amenity each.

 

[Amrunril]

Personally, I think having the entertainment complex take up a district slot is a good thing. It forces you to make a serious sacrifice if you want to invest in amenities or if you build your empire in such a way that you run short of them. If the entertainment complex isn't worth that district slot, I'd rather increase its effectiveness than take away its cost. I'd be inclined increase the amenities of the district itself and arena to 2 (or a comparable number based on adjacencies or resources), and I'd be open to adding great person points as well (perhaps writers for the district, generals for the arena, scientists for the zoo and merchants for the stadium- or perhaps a buff to adjacent districts instead).

It's also worth noting that every district with a series of buildings takes up a district slot. I was going to say all districts with buildings, period, but the neighborhood's easily forgettable buildings do break that pattern. Still, it's worth noting if we're looking at features that distinguish districts that do and don't take a district slot, and I do think the zoo and stadium would be too strong if they could be built in a district that doesn't consume a slot.

 

[hhhhhh]

Personally, I think having the entertainment complex take up a district slot is a good thing. It forces you to make a serious sacrifice if you want to invest in amenities or if you build your empire in such a way that you run short of them. If the entertainment complex isn't worth that district slot, I'd rather increase its effectiveness than take away its cost. I'd be inclined increase the amenities of the district itself and arena to 2 (or a comparable number based on adjacencies or resources), and I'd be open to adding great person points as well (perhaps writers for the district, generals for the arena, scientists for the zoo and merchants for the stadium- or perhaps a buff to adjacent districts instead).

It's also worth noting that every district with a series of buildings takes up a district slot. I was going to say all districts with buildings, period, but the neighborhood's easily forgettable buildings do break that pattern. Still, it's worth noting if we're looking at features that distinguish districts that do and don't take a district slot, and I do think the zoo and stadium would be too strong if they could be built in a district that doesn't consume a slot.

Isn't the production you put in serious enough? When amenity really matters EC will cost 100+ production even after 40% discount. (Speaking of this, unlocking EC to mess up with district discount may piss some high-end players off.)

100+ production for 1 amenity, and if you want to build arena, 150 production for another amenity (and 1 culture). It simply won't pay off.

 

[monikernemo]

I welcome the idea of making EC a non-specialty district. But for now it just makes the whole optimisation puzzle abit more challenging.

 

[The googles do nothing]

Rock bands could have been the GP of EC's.

 

[iammaxhailme]

I don't think it's weird. What I think is weird is that it's so underpowered.

I think ECs should add loyalty (more than amenities regularly do) and give even more amenities for being next to neighborhoods and stop partisans from forming. (Waterparks too)

 

[acluewithout]

100+ production for 1 amenity, and if you want to build arena, 150 production for another amenity (and 1 culture). It simply won't pay off.

Hopefully with all these changes the EC ends up in a similar place to the Industrial Zone. Basically, it usually won't be efficient to build one, but it's "good enough" that you can justifiably build a few and stack districts if you're playing a bit below super-efficient-sub turn 25 science victory chop project fest.

Building a District and using a District Slot for one Amenity is a bad deal. Luckily, that's not actually the deal on offer. Instead, for your hammers, you get +1 Amenity, then the ability to buy another +1 second Amenity with Gold, and then the ability to buy 2 or 3 additional Regional Amenities with Gold (ie by buying the Buildings). You can run a project that boosts Loyalty, you’ve got an additional District for adjacencies (City Center, EC and TD if you want), and the T2 and T3 Buildings also boost surrounding tiles and adds tourism. Oh yeah, and happiness can add +%modifiers for yields and tiles, so indirectly it can boost culture, science and everything else.

Is that a good deal? No. Of course not. The good buildings unlock too late and there are easier ways to get Culture and Amenities. But, with no more free Amenities, and additional adjacencies for Theatre Squares, it’s a better deal. It might even be a good enough deal to make it at least ok to build. And it may end up an even better deal if Amenities and Happiness get a few more tweaks.

At the moment, I’m okay building a couple and don’t feel I’m borking my empire. Which is a big improvement, because I’d been wanting so justification to build these for ages. If only Neighbourhoods and Sewers could be make vaguely useful beyond Eurekas...

Honestly, I think ECs are basically fine. It’s Amenities and Happiness that need a bit more tweaking. Happiness probably needs to be more valuable (ie Ecstatic should give a bigger bonus or there should be a level above Ecstatic) and the negatives of unhappiness maybe needs to ramp up based on difficulty or Era or something. But ECs themselves seem fine to me.

What I’m curious about is whether those Civs with bonus Amenities are still well balanced. Romes’ unique Aqueduct and Khmer’s free Amenity seem maybe a bit underpowered now, but I’m not sure.

 

[Sostratus]

Is that a good deal? No. Of course not. The good buildings unlock too late and there are easier ways to get Culture and Amenities. But, with no more free Amenities, and additional adjacencies for Theatre Squares, it’s a better deal. It might even be a good enough deal to make it at least ok to build. And it may end up an even better deal if Amenities and Happiness get a few more tweaks.

the EC is a good example of how you have districts designed to all be very similar in yields but the buildings themselves are following cost assignments based on the tech tree.
Arenas have the same problem workshops have been perennially plagued with. (Look at how inexpensive libraries and shrines are!)

I really like removing the free amenity, but I’m not sure how I feel about moving the thresholds. I would rather have seen every amenity in surplus or deficit applying small changes to the city yields- that way more amenities confer a strictly monotonic benefit. I will have to see with more play but I don’t really like the “dead zone” to build up to ecstatic.

 

[hhhhhh]

I don't think the comparison between EC and IZ are fair. Production is a basic output of cities, while amenities are "derivative" in some sense. And while Industrial Zone's Tier 1 buildings are not so good, one can get usually get good adjacency, get help from city states, and boost it by policies. For EC it's just awkward. When you need 40 amenity to boost your city from "Content" to "Happy" (a modest 10-city model), a district and a building for 2 amenities is just not going to be worth it.

I will only consider EC good enough if one can comfortably build 4 EC to gain an amenity of 40, and the inspiration of Professional Sports at the same time. Currently one can build a full set (workshop, factory, coal power plants) of IZ and its buildings to gain, say, a +5 IZ, with help of policy and two industrial city states, 10 + 5 + 10 + 10 = 35 production. But for EC, even if you can unlock zoo by the time you have Industrialization, you only gain 1 + 1 + 7 = 9 amenity (assuming zoo affect 7 cities). And the truth is you usually cannot even unlock zoo after 10-20 turns of Industrialization. Before that EC and its building is just... garbage. (And since effects of zoo don't stack in a 10 city model you won't get 40 amenity from 4 EC with zoos in any way.)

And stadiums... does everyone agree that they come too late? If they come at Mass Media then maybe they (and EC) can be a bit useful.

 

[Tech Osen]

Entertainment Complex has been not very useful throughout the history of the game - people may build it if they want to build Colosseum, and that's about it. One of the major criticism is you just cannot allocate your precious district slot to EC, which is more or less useless. This is true even after EC provide +2 to theatre squares - if you build an EC then your 10 population city will function like a 7-pop one, with effectively only 3 speciality districts.

Not everybody plays the ten-population-city game. I build plenty of EC's. I do agree they could be made more interesting.

 

[Myomoto]

How about the EC district itself gives amenities equal to the appeal of the tile it's built on? That would strengthen the clustering of theatre squares around an EC as the right move as well (TSs add +1 appeal on surrounding tiles). Change the content threshold back to 0 as well.

Maybe the district gives half the appeal in amenities, and the arena building gives the other half?

I don't know how such a change could be applied to the water park, but maybe finally coastal tiles could be given appeal and actually be included in national parks?

 

[hhhhhh]

How about the EC district itself gives amenities equal to the appeal of the tile it's built on?

Oh that's very interesting. But the Tier 1 building is still bad.

 

[Deadly Dog]

I really like how the T2 buildings in both these districts add science yields to certain tiles. To the extent the city can grow and work more of these tiles, you have a building whose power scales with pop. If that mechanic were expanded on I would like the EC even more. As it is now I definitely like not just one early EC but enough to cover all the cities of my empire, just like IZ's. Then in late game I'm adding the Water Park into the mix, and that's when you see the amenities start overflowing.

I'm not going to argue that these are strong districts or a great return on investment. I just like having ecstatic cities and still keep growing even after pop 10 or 20. But I'm hoping my indulgences have positioned me well for "adapting" to the new amenity rules. Time to go find out, I have the whole morning today to play CIV

EDIT: Oh yeah, the topic. Yes they should occupy a slot. But they could be boosted a bit too, maybe.

 

[Galvatron]

I had a proposal that the entertainment district buildings should provide bonuses to cities that are happy. I.e. the arena would provide 2.5% bonus yields if happy, and 5% bonus yields if ecstatic. This could stack for each of the three buildings as well, resulting in tall ecstatic cities gaining 15% extra yields, on top of the normal ecstatic bonus.

Though for this to work, the district itself might want some adjacency bonuses that provide amenities. I have always thought luxuries, theater squares, and wonders would be perfect for that, providing 1 amenity each.

I was thinking something similar, although i wad sweating just double the yields of celebration for having the district. Making the effects scale could work to though.

 

[kaspergm]

Rock bands could have been the GP of EC's.

That is a really fun idea. Not quite sure how it would work in practice, but it's an interesting line of thought.

I don't particularly mind that entertainment district takes up a slot, but I do think it sits in a very awkward position with no specialists and no associated great people. I'd rather fix the latter than make it a "free" district, but of course that's not just a quick change with a few numbers in the game files.

 

[Josephias]

I think no specific yield adjacencies, no specialists, no GPP is what indeed makes EC seem bland vs other types of district.

I'll support some way to increase the EC ammenities by placement, and @Myomoto 's idea to have Appeal influencing it is probably the way to go. Arena could also need some improvement, maybe in terms of amenities or additional yields: i.e, make it a selection building, with Arena's increasing the XP of units built in the city, while other buildings (e.g., a garden, may increase the city's (or adjacent districts) GPP generation in a % <- this would also cover the fact EC does not provide GPP itself.).

EC might also have and increased adjacency bonus to commercial hubs, plus the one they have given to teather squares. All in all the "fair" combo is that one: commerce + leisure + festivals (culture).

I might even promote these adjacencies being boosted by population of the city (the bigger the city's population is, more population moving around, buying, having fun, and builidng your empire's culture, so adjacency may be increased in +0.5/+1 for each 5 pop in the city) -- thus, turning the EC in the tool to pursue a tall strategy (with tall being culture-oriented, and wide science-oriented)

 

[King of Prussia]

First game after the patch and i will say my first impression of the amenity changes is good. With that said, it really reveals how bad of a district the EC is. Water parks are just so much better. They take up a less valuable tile and you get their buildings available around the time you unlock them.(it is really nice sticking them in those 1 tile lakes) The buildings are better. They need to find a way to make this district useful before Zoos and stadiums outside of the new adjacency bonus.