The one thing that stands out in this comment is 1UPT. Combine that with a hexbased map system and you create problems for the AI that a human player can easily work out, but the AI can't.
Absolutely I agree, but that isn’t an argument that the IV AI is somehow smarter.
It is the exact same algorithms!
It's perfectly true that this has not much to do with Diplomacy.
Agreed.
It's false that Civ V has 'better diplomacy', simply due to flavours…
It is not simply due to flavors. V has better diplomacy
for a wide variety of reasons.
...were introduced in Civ IV
Earlier than than I think! Which version did they set Gandhi’s war monger attribute to -1? Which turned out to be an underflow, so his war mongering, on a scale from 0 to 10, was actually like 32767!
…and appear in Civ V only slightly changed.
That is not correct. The system, as compared to previous version, is greatly expanded and the behavior of the various AIs take on strong distinct and recognizable personalities. See this
Civ V Interactive AI Bias Value Chart to get a sense of how robust the system is!
Civ V 'diplomacy' is often nothing more than begging the human player for gold
You seem to be confounding flavor text dialogue screens with actual diplomacy. The AIs have basically zero diplomatic influence over the player. The player, on the other hand, can reliably manipulate the AIs.
In addition, Civ IV had simply more diplomatic options available…
I have no idea what you are talking about here.
…to the point of ganging up against a human player who was getting too far ahead of the AI.
Fair point, and I would have loved to see that mechanic carried forward to V! OTOH, it was kind of pointless, since it was only ever triggered after the human player was clearly going to win anyway. Too little, too late.
As I read the thread, I see two distinct conversations, flowing past each other.
Thanks for calling this out. I would like for us to be able to agree as to what we mean by better AI and better AI.
Better AI: viewed through the lens of how well it wages war, and secondarily how predictable/exploitable AI behavior is
I agree that IV the AI civs wage war better. I am convinced that is 90% due to 1UPT.
I think the how predictable/exploitable is AI behavior is better characterized as diplomacy.
Better Diplomacy: viewed through the lens of how many choices the player or the AI has, and whether that complexity is pleasing
I am happy to debate player choices and Civics versus Social Policies, but “diplomacy” does not seem like the right term for that. Except that, of course, Civic choices and Ideology influences AI behavior.
The two conversations merge when talking about using diplomacy to persuade the AI to join you in a war.
Agreed, that is one of the uses for diplomacy. And we could talk about persuading the AI to join you in a war as one example of comparing game mechanics.
The points I was trying to make, admitted poorly, is (1) that V has several more uses for influencing AI behavior (i.e., diplomacy) beyond mutual wars, and (2) more mechanisms available to the player for improving / degrading relations (aka, diplomacy).
...In my experience, the Civ V AI struggles to move-and-shoot with ranged units
It is even worse than all of what you describe! The V AI cannot move and shoot at all. If units move, they will not shoot.
I have constructed very elaborate diplomatic deals in Civ IV.
Your best efforts in IV are nothing compared to machinations needed to pass World Religion or World Ideology in V!
Since the civics may be changed on demand…
Agreed, changing Civics is the one trick the player has in IV that is not reflected in V. But in my experience Civics was usually too important to put your government on the line more than twice in a game. V with Ideologies is a stronger mechanic, but also only useful once or twice a game.
-- not adopted one-time, as social policies are --
A bit off topic, but sorry, Social Polices, even without being reversible, are
so much more interesting than Civics!
...one can put civics changes, religion changes, and trade embargoes on the table, in combination with techs, gold, and resources. That certainly seems like richer diplomacy, or more complex diplomacy, than Civ V.
Please correct me if I am not remembering right, but do you not have to make Civic change ahead of time? Can you actually put a civic switch in the trade dialog box? From that perspective, it is similar (but weaker for influence) than Ideologies. It is available earlier in the game of course. I do miss trading techs (and maps)! Religion in V has effects on AI attitude, and is stronger, but less flexible than with IV. Embargoes for trade is not a straight up mechanic, but V lets you trade a variety of World Congress votes for gold, resources, luxuries. V has trade routes, gifts, making World Congress proposals (and voting for/against AI proposals), spying, demands, denouncements, and a few subtle mechanics I am forgetting at the moment. That certainly seems like richer diplomacy, and more complex diplomacy, than with IV.
EDIT to ask: I cannot remember, do the IV AI ever approach the player with interesting offers? With V, the most exotic thing is an AI asking the player to denounce another AI. Also AIs will proactively ask the player to DOW another AI, and the player can get some gold for DOWing, but the AI will not initiate an offer to the player to DOW for money.