Does the AI actually play by the same rule set as the human player?

[nzcamel]

A semi-related idea came to my mind as I just finished a Hungary SV game on Deity. At around T160, I became sovereign of all city states that somewhat concerned me - obviously, the levy game gave me a huge amount of extra envoys but the sheer surplus of envoys made me wonder whether the AI participates in the CS quest mini-game. I couldn't find any concrete info on this, so my question stays open:

Are CS quests limited to the human players? It is absolutely sure that it's not a first-takes-it situation as objectives do not disappear unless the human player clear them. But is it possible for the AI to grab the envoy for completing a task (that obviously goes unnoticed by the player)? If the AI is ineligible to play this game, then there we have a huge assymetrical design point that gives significant advantage to the human player.

In my SP experience I don't win all the CS quests. Not even close. I guess it's possible there's a work around like some just get cancelled even if the AI don't fulfill them, so the human doesn't get them all. But other than that they must be picking them up.

 

[Atlas627]

In my SP experience I don't win all the CS quests. Not even close. I guess it's possible there's a work around like some just get cancelled even if the AI don't fulfill them, so the human doesn't get them all. But other than that they must be picking them up.

The quests are not global. Each player gets a unique quest, and if it becomes invalid then the quest gets cancelled (either you no longer CAN complete it, or you are at war with the CS). You gain a new quest at the start of a new era.

So I might get "Trade Route" while someone else has "Eureka" while someone else has "Barbarian Camp" quests, all with the same CS. I can complete mine without it interacting with the others, even if someone else needs to make a Trade Route.

But I agree the AI might have some other way of cancelling a quest, or types that are invalid to get in the first place.

 

[nzcamel]

The quests are not global. Each player gets a unique quest, and if it becomes invalid then the quest gets cancelled (either you no longer CAN complete it, or you are at war with the CS). You gain a new quest at the start of a new era.

So I might get "Trade Route" while someone else has "Eureka" while someone else has "Barbarian Camp" quests, all with the same CS. I can complete mine without it interacting with the others, even if someone else needs to make a Trade Route.

But I agree the AI might have some other way of cancelling a quest, or types that are invalid to get in the first place.

You seem pretty sure of this, so I'm guessing people have looked into it. Seems a bit odd though as sometimes the quest will be get Eureka X, which I already have, so can't get.

 

[Atlas627]

You seem pretty sure of this, so I'm guessing people have looked into it. Seems a bit odd though as sometimes the quest will be get Eureka X, which I already have, so can't get.

?? You should never be able to get a quest you cannot complete. I have never ever seen this happen. Do you happen to have a save/screenshot of this happening?

 

[InsidiousMage]

?? You should never be able to get a quest you cannot complete.

I regularly get a quest for the inspiration for Reformed Church despite the fact the I haven't founded a religion and can't get the inspiration unless I do something like get lucky on a tribal village or the Bolshoi Theater.

 

[bbbt]

I agree, that would be the best solution. And the most expensive. So some general annotations:

1. If they would release the source files of the core DLL, modders could improve the AI like this was done for civ4 & civ5. Strangely enough not a lot of players are asking for "release the source files of the core DLL".

2. I think the keyword cheats doesn't help us at all. It has only a meaning for an objectively GoodAI (cf. to Soren Johnson's GoodAI vs. FunAI video), and to expect we could receive anyhow a strong GoodAI is less than an illusion.
More important: I want to win most of the time! The AI players shall be challenging, sure, moderately to very challenging; but to be honest, only VERY, VERY few players want to loose more often than very seldom.
[Developing a strong GoodAI and then dumbing it down to customers wishes isn't cost effective at all]

For a FunAI the word cheats has no meaning: the AI players shall play by rules so that it is fun, challenging and fun.
We humans like exhausting complex & complicated rules (in increasing numbers). Don't expect the AI players to play by those overly difficult rules, because it is a nightmare to implement. The AI should play the same rules in general, but with (a lot) less details. Of course this must be done during gameplay in a inconspicuous way, ie. the human player has to "cheat" himself to reveal it.


Boardgames epilogue: Differently strong players can agree to play with handicaps on one side - nobody calls that cheating. Just adjust to differently strong players.
Ie. in Chess the stronger player can forego 1 or 2 pawns or a knight. In Go this is more smooth and done regularly by the weaker player starting with a couple of extra pieces ...

I agree the word 'handicap' is more relevant than 'cheat' in terms of AI (or players) bonuses, though if the AI is literally not playing by defined rules (i.e. teleporting troops for example), I'd consider that cheating.

Also players 'cheat' all the time - re-rolling a start you didn't like is 'cheating'. Looking at the map before you start is 'cheating'. Loading an earlier saved game to replay a different way is 'cheating'. None of these (except maybe the looking at the map) are things the AI can do. People are welcome to do these things - I do, it's a single player game, but they are by definition things the player can do and the AI can't, and that the player couldn't do in multiplayer.

In chess, this used to be commonplace in the 19th C. Nowadays, in my experience, people really don't like games at odds.

Golf theoretically, though it's not really a directly competitive game. You are mainly playing solo (and competing with yourself) while hanging out with people.

 

[nzcamel]

?? You should never be able to get a quest you cannot complete. I have never ever seen this happen. Do you happen to have a save/screenshot of this happening?

No, I've never saved it because I have assumed the quests were global, so it made sense there would be the odd one I couldn't complete no matter how hard I tried. I will watch out for an example for you.

 

[Linklite]

I regularly get a quest for the inspiration for Reformed Church despite the fact the I haven't founded a religion and can't get the inspiration unless I do something like get lucky on a tribal village or the Bolshoi Theater.

That's a different situation, though. You've chosen to go down a route that makes it difficult or impossible. What Atlas is talking about is like "get the inspiration for sewers" when you've already researched sewers so you've been blocked by the game. Itself. I don't mind being blocked on quests that I've chosen to not do ornblocked myself over like in your case, but the game itself shouldn't block me from completing a quest.

 

[nzcamel]

That's a different situation, though. You've chosen to go down a route that makes it difficult or impossible. What Atlas is talking about is like "get the inspiration for sewers" when you've already researched sewers so you've been blocked by the game. Itself. I don't mind being blocked on quests that I've chosen to not do ornblocked myself over like in your case, but the game itself shouldn't block me from completing a quest.

If the CS quests are tailored to each player then it makes no difference whether you cannot complete it because you have no religion or because you have already gained that inspiration/eureka. It's completely within the power of the game to only give you quests you can fulfill.

 

[Atlas627]

I regularly get a quest for the inspiration for Reformed Church despite the fact the I haven't founded a religion and can't get the inspiration unless I do something like get lucky on a tribal village or the Bolshoi Theater.

But those are valid ways to get the quest. I'm talking about when you absolutely cannot complete the quest at all. For example receiving a quest to get a Eureka for a tech you've already researched. Or clear a barbarian camp that no longer exists.

 

[PiR]

Same for me, I get sometimes difficult quests, but never impossible ones. Difficult ones can stay a loooooooong time undone.

 

[UWHabs]

Same for me, I get sometimes difficult quests, but never impossible ones. Difficult ones can stay a loooooooong time undone.

"Hi, I know you're on the other side of the planet from us, but I would REALLY love to convert to your religion or for you to send us a trade route. Kthksbye."

 

[PiR]

Exactly. But I think I dislike even more the late-game "get an Eureka for" a tech that is only "eurekabled" by great scientist or spy. Although at that time, you need the quests much less for the envoys.

 

[lilnev!]

You can get impossible quests with tech shuffle on. Example, I've skipped Iron Working because it's a dead-end, but gotten Gunpowder. I meet a CS who requests that I train a swordsman. Even if I now research Iron Working, muskets are available so swords are obsolete and can't be built.

 

[PiR]

Ok yes, Tech suffle creates weird situations. I have Pikeman before Spearman once. But if you sell all your niter, if you have enough Iron, aren't you able to create a Swordsman?

 

[Atlas627]

You can get a Swordsman without researching Iron Working though. I think that quest would be achieved if you somehow gained a unit via Wonder (not that there's one for Swordsmen, but apply your example to Spearmen/Pikemen and you can build Temple of Zeus), upgraded via meteor (that's not a mod, right?), or levied a city-state's Swordsman?

But yes, I certainly don't expect the game to know what is/isn't possible due to shuffling the techs.

 

[Qwan]

Are CS quests limited to the human players?

I'm pretty sure they are not.

For example, you can take a game, move it into the Hot Seat folder, and load it there, setting the AIs to Human to see the quests. Although that's not complete proof, as Multiplayer may change things.

I've also seen AIs go after the same barbarian outpost that's a quest for me. Again, not conclusive, as AIs like to go after barbarians. But if that happens to you, and they get it first, look to see if their envoys go up that turn.

 

[Qwan]

Eureka and Inspiration City-State quests disappear when you learn the associated tech or civic, and get replaced the next era. However, you can still get an Inspiration quest for Reformed Church, even if all prophets have been taken; I think even if you're Kongo and can't found a religion. But I've never seen a conversion quest unless I founded a religion.

Oh, and you may be able to "train" a swordman even if they are obsolete. Find a city-state that has them, and levy their units. I often do that to do the reverse (e.g. killing a unit with a Musket), getting eurekas and/or quests that way.

 

[nzcamel]

Eureka and Inspiration City-State quests disappear when you learn the associated tech or civic, and get replaced the next era.

I don't think they do. I mean, sure, of course they do if you get the inspiration/eureka; but if you already had that boost prior to the quest being given at the beginning of the era, they remain. Presumably imo till another Civ fulfills it.

 

[Qwan]

I don't think they do. I mean, sure, of course they do if you get the inspiration/eureka; but if you already had that boost prior to the quest being given at the beginning of the era, they remain. Presumably imo till another Civ fulfills it.

If you've already gotten the boost for Iron Working, by building an Iron Mine, no city-state will give you a quest for that Eureka. You can get quests to build a certain type of district even if you already have one; you just have to build or acquire another.

If you have a quest to get the Eureka for Iron Working, and learn Iron Working without any boost, that quest disappears. Next era, you get a new one from that city-state.

This is for GS. I don't have NFP.