Does wiping out a pantheon prevent the founding of a religion?

[Aaron90495]

So I'm playing my friend in a 1v1 match, and I'm doing the whole "really wide faith/science-focused Mayans" thing. I have a huge leg up on him, having Mt. Uluru inside my borders and finding a settler in the ruins on turn 4 (!). I'm about to finish Great Library and use it to get Theology, so I can either get a Great Prophet with Long Count or by getting Hagia Sophia (or even by finishing Liberty soon).

Now, he has no (or very little) faith production and just a pantheon. We're playing on a tiny map, so theoretically, 3 religions can be founded. But if I send my Prophet and wipe his pantheon in all of his cities, will I prevent him from founding a religion?

 

[AriochIV]

I don't think so. Pantheons don't generate any actual Faith, so removing the Pantheon from his cities won't do anything to reduce the amount of Faith he's generating (unless he happens to have a Faith-generating pantheon belief), and if he generates enough, he should still be able to found a religion.

As far as I'm aware, Pantheons and Religions never really go away, even if they don't have any followers.

 

[Aaron90495]

I don't think so. Pantheons don't generate any actual Faith, so removing the Pantheon from his cities won't do anything to reduce the amount of Faith he's generating (unless he happens to have a Faith-generating pantheon belief), and if he generates enough, he should still be able to found a religion.

As far as I'm aware, Pantheons and Religions never really go away, even if they don't have any followers.

But perhaps you can't found a religion if your pantheon has been wiped out? Or maybe it'll at least force him to again found his pantheon, forcing him to burn an extra Great Prophet?

Anyone else have experiences/thoughts about this?

 

[AriochIV]

Again, there's no mechanism for "wiping out" a pantheon. It's still there, permanently associated with the civilization that founded it, even if there are no followers on the map.

But since it's a 1v1 match, I'm not sure it's even possible for anyone to found a second religion, since the maximum number of religions is usually the number of players divided by two.

 

[Aaron90495]

Again, there's no mechanism for "wiping out" a pantheon. It's still there, permanently associated with the civilization that founded it, even if there are no followers on the map.

But since it's a 1v1 match, I'm not sure it's even possible for anyone to found a second religion, since the maximum number of religions is usually the number of players divided by two.

That makes sense. I'm pretty sure 2 religions can be founded on a duel (1v1) map, but since we're playing on a tiny map, I'm positive at least 3 religions can be founded.

 

[nefloyd]

Whatever you do to his pantheon doesn't prevent him from getting his own religion. If you spread your religion to his cities he'll get your pantheon bonus in them. When he founds a religion, his pantheon will be a part of it.

You don't even need to have gotten a pantheon to found a religion. Getting a prophet from Hagia or Liberty or Mayan or whatever will bring you right to founding a religion and when you do so, you'll pick a pantheon belief as part of it.

 

[Aaron90495]

Whatever you do to his pantheon doesn't prevent him from getting his own religion. If you spread your religion to his cities he'll get your pantheon bonus in them. When he founds a religion, his pantheon will be a part of it.

You don't even need to have gotten a pantheon to found a religion. Getting a prophet from Hagia or Liberty or Mayan or whatever will bring you right to founding a religion and when you do so, you'll pick a pantheon belief as part of it.

Really? I could have sworn you have to use your first prophet to form a pantheon.

 

[Harv72b]

This question came up in another thread, and you do not need to have a pantheon in place in order to found a religion--if he manages to produce a great prophet then he will still be able to found a religion with it. That religion will incorporate whatever pantheon he originally chose.

EDIT: Also, I haven't personally tested this out in-game, but logically speaking any new cities he founded should still start with his original pantheon in your scenario.

 

[nefloyd]

Uh, no, when have you ever had to spend a prophet on a pantheon? Pantheons are formed when you accrue enough faith; it starts pretty low (20?) and increases a little bit each time players get a pantheon. If you manage to get a prophet without ever passing that threshold, like I mentioned before, you'll choose a pantheon belief along with picking your Founder & Follower belief. I've done this before when I didn't want to spend any time on shrines etc. until later.

 

[householder]

This question came up in another thread, and you do not need to have a pantheon in place in order to found a religion--if he manages to produce a great prophet then he will still be able to found a religion with it. That religion will incorporate whatever pantheon he originally chose.

Yes, I just tested this in a new game by using the In Game Editor mod. Giving myself Hagia Sophia will also give me a Great Prophet. Even if I have no pantheon, I can found a new religion. Among my choices to make will be to pick a pantheon for my new religion.

Incidentally, when I gave myself all of the social policies in the Liberty tree, I was given a free Great Person. However, choosing a Great Prophet was not possible. Has anyone else experienced this?

As for wiping out religions, I have done that via the normal game. When Maya founded Buddhism right next door to me, I declared war and captured the holy city before Pacal had a chance to spread his heresy. I puppeted the city and used a Great Prophet to expunge Buddhism. I then puppeted the rest of his cities, and at the end, I looked at the list of World Religions and saw that Buddhism was no longer on the list. I can't be sure exactly when Buddhism was wiped out: whether it was capturing the holy city and then cleansing it or whether I needed to totally eliminate Pacal from the game (despite Buddhism not ever being in any other city other than that initial holy city)

 

[Harv72b]

As for wiping out religions, I have done that via the normal game. When Maya founded Buddhism right next door to me, I declared war and captured the holy city before Pacal had a chance to spread his heresy. I puppeted the city and used a Great Prophet to expunge Buddhism. I then puppeted the rest of his cities, and at the end, I looked at the list of World Religions and saw that Buddhism was no longer on the list. I can't be sure exactly when Buddhism was wiped out: whether it was capturing the holy city and then cleansing it or whether I needed to totally eliminate Pacal from the game (despite Buddhism not ever being in any other city other than that initial holy city)

The Great Prophet alone won't eradicate a religion; it will still (slowly) re-establish itself in the Holy City via internal pressure. An inquisitor will permanently wipe a holy city, though, with the obvious condition that you have to hold that city before an inquisitor can be used on it.

/I also saw the thing with closing Liberty, so I assume that's normal. But in this case his opponent had established a pantheon, so closing Liberty would work even if that pantheon had been wiped off the map via conversions.

 

[MadDjinn]

a few random points:

When your opponent gets a Prophet and goes to found a religion, it will wipe out (as per a normal usage for spread) your religion from their new 'holy city'.

you can't prevent them from founding a religion without wiping them off the map (duel games).
-- max religions are based upon # of civs, not map size - though map size and # of civs are 'default'-ish the same unless you change the number of civs on a map (tiny/2 civs for example).

it's #civs/2+1 for the total religion (to prevent a duel game from having only 1 religion).

 

[Kwami]

you can't prevent them from founding a religion without wiping them off the map (duel games).
-- max religions are based upon # of civs, not map size - though map size and # of civs are 'default'-ish the same unless you change the number of civs on a map (tiny/2 civs for example).

it's #civs/2+1 for the total religion (to prevent a duel game from having only 1 religion).

That's certainly not true. I just created a game with a standard-size map and only 6 civs and there are 5 religions available. Your formula is accurate, but only if you use the default number of civs for a map size instead of the actual number of civs.

8/2+1 = 5
6/2+1 = 4

 

[Peacemongerer]

As for wiping out religions, I have done that via the normal game. When Maya founded Buddhism right next door to me, I declared war and captured the holy city before Pacal had a chance to spread his heresy. I puppeted the city and used a Great Prophet to expunge Buddhism. I then puppeted the rest of his cities, and at the end, I looked at the list of World Religions and saw that Buddhism was no longer on the list. I can't be sure exactly when Buddhism was wiped out: whether it was capturing the holy city and then cleansing it or whether I needed to totally eliminate Pacal from the game (despite Buddhism not ever being in any other city other than that initial holy city)

This does not actually eliminate the religion, as the Holy City is still exerting +30 pressure on itself and it will pop back up again. It simply dissapears from the menu until the holy city is restored to Pacal. I believe it dissapears from the menu when you take the Holy City.

To test this, mouse-over the puppet cities you have and see how the religion still has followers in some of them. Also, reload the save after you took the Holy City and click view city. His religious bonuses locally are probably still being applied in spite of the religion not showing on the menu.

 

[Radek_CZ]

Setler in ruins ??

 

[nefloyd]

Setler in ruins ??

Happens on really low difficulty

 

[Monthar]

Number of religions is definitely based solely on map size. The devs set that number based on the default number of civs for the map size. Changing the number of civs doesn't change the number of religions that can be founded.