DoF-- worth it or no?

[Ashwind]

DoFs only work in smallish games. I play with max AIs and frankly, its just a matter of time before everyone denounces everyone. It's like a snowball going downhill. And there's no way to stop it. One cannot let the declaration die off naturally.

I would like to see an option for mutually ending the declaration. With no penalty hit. Right now, it is a permanent feature.

Also when, for example I backstabbed an AI who ihad DoF with, it's good that there is a diplomatic hit. But why am I getting penalised for an AI deciding to backstab me? Seriously, it feels like a DoF is a bad marriage. You lose any other way - coming from a guy's perspective.

EDIT for clarity:
Player DoF with AI1. Then backstab AI1. Player gets Diplo hit with all other AIs = GOOD.
Player DoF with AI2. AI2 backstabs player. Player gets Diplo hit with all other AIs = WHAT?

 

[Bibor]

Instead of whining, maybe we could just explore the mechanics behind "hate" better.

What exactly "AI X covets your lands" means?
What exactly "AI X covets your wonders" means?
How to exactly determine whether a city-state is in some AIs interest or not (excluding alliances)?
How to know which CIV hates warmongers and to what level (declaration, city capture, capital capture, complete eradication)?

Lets find the answers to these questions and diplomacy will suddenly look less random.

 

[cccv]

I dont see whats wrong with friendly hating. They want loads of stuff that you have, but realise that in the short-medium term the best thing to do is to be on your side. I behave like that with the AI constantly, if they start doing that back to me, its absolutely wonderful.

I can see that, but they did it backwards. the AI will insult me to my face while the tooltip says "they're friendly!" If the devs wanted to capture what you were describing, the AI should be acting nice to us while the tooltip says "they don't actually like you at all."

Back on topic, one of these days I'll have to agree to a DoF with someone who I know will covet my land and see if the DoF actually makes them stay friends or not. Anyone tried that? Problem is, if they covet my land I probably covet theirs too, so I won't want to DoF them. Or is there actually a benefit to DoFing and backstabbing? The AI does it, so I'd like to think there'd actually be a point to it.

 

[generalwar]

Instead of whining, maybe we could just explore the mechanics behind "hate" better.

What exactly "AI X covets your lands" means?
What exactly "AI X covets your wonders" means?
How to exactly determine whether a city-state is in some AIs interest or not (excluding alliances)?
How to know which CIV hates warmongers and to what level (declaration, city capture, capital capture, complete eradication)?

Lets find the answers to these questions and diplomacy will suddenly look less random.

There is a thread about it, I saw it couple days ago. It was about AIs flavours and the one who hates warmongers most is Rammy who has 9 points/ 10 for hating warmongers. I think that Alex likes to go to war more than anyone else, but we already know this.

 

[Bibor]

I think that Alex likes to go to war more than anyone else, but we already know this.

Or as we Croats say about Macedonians: Puškata-sabljata!

 

[dashwinner]

I've experienced alot of the stuff that has been mentioned here, however one thing that i do like since the patch is this friendship-triangle thing going on. in my game, im currently friends with the 3 top dogs while the rest of the world hates us but cant do much about it. although it will probably lead to problems around the end since my allies are ahead of me in terms of research.

another thing i thought was interesting to note is and something i have found strangely consistant. in almost all my games, i will go to war with the nearest civ early on and take them out, usually leaving them one city in a corner or off my main continent (as to not get the diplo hit for taking out civs). 9/10 ten times, these civ end up become very friendly to me. although it does take them time to get back on their feet, (1) i know they won't ever be a threat again and (2) they seem to love me. weird. its a guaranteed trade partner for the rest of the game, and since they have little land, they usually will accept any luxury i have. this doesn't work with civs i take out later on though. china, in my last game, for example, has been hating on me for the better part of 2000 years. nothing i do will change her mind, and i'll be lucky if i get 4gpt from her per luxury, usually she just refuses. there was no way for me to even get open borders from her, which was quite frustrating

 

[cccv]

Another game complete, made 2 DoFs. Askia only asked that I denounced Egypt. Since Egypt was on another continent and I have yet to see them build an army, I went ahead. Catherine asked me for dye periodically, but never money. None of the civs were in good shape for money except for me, but some (Catherine included) had happiness problems.

So I /think/ the rule of thumb here is, if a civ has a happiness problem and you have luxuries they don't have and aren't trading to them, they'll ask you for the luxury rather than money. This could be useful to know for people like me who want to hold on to their money.

As for Askia, I have no idea why he never asked me for anything except to denounce Egypt.