Domestic Quick Poll (600AD) - Octavinium Settler Instructions

[eyrei]

There are a couple of security measures in place to prevent this sort of abuse by a leader. One is that the DP has the right to stop a turn chat whenever he/she wants. Thus, if the FA leader said to declare war on everyone, the DP could simply stop the chat. Of course, this still needs to be clarified as the DP could potentially be the culprit. The other mechanism is the ever so popular PI. As long as the DP has enough sense to stop the chat if such an unreasonable set of instructions is issued, the offender could be removed from office. I suggest we simply add a few very particular clauses regarding great leaders, and the like that force the DP to stop the chat before making any decision on them.

 

[Cyc]

Basically, eyrei, what you've said makes sense, but that's a side discussion that we can get to later.

Quoting Veera:
However, the definition of 'Organizing' had nothing to do with my decision to stop this Quick Poll. Once Forty decides to make a poll, he *must* follow the proper guidelines, whether he has a mandate or not. The fact that he 'Organizes the Decisions' does not allow him to post an improper poll.
And if he wishes to use his power to merely Organize decisions and bypass the vote entirely, it's his own political funeral.
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You are correct ,Veera, about the quick poll part. I understand how you feel about "organize, too. Ask Fionn. When I was telling him about the Domestic Department, "organize had its own paragraph or two. Maybe I should reprint it...Anyway, if you ever become a Leader Veera, you would possibly see the light. "Organize" is a phrase that has helped the Demogame a lot more than it will or has hurt it. It can be a saving grace. But you must learn that, it can not be taught.

Also, by declaring the poll invalid, you have done 40J a favor. Now it can be discarded, promptly. It does not have to be used on a factual basis. 40J can even start another "informational" poll immediately on the same subject.

All the extra hogwash being brought into the discussion can wait.

 

[FortyJ]

Originally posted by Veera Anlai
To be legal, a proposed Quick Poll action must be instantaneous OR reversible/correctable (See CoS.1.F.4.C.3) AND it must be a temporary change OR be a specific, one time change (See CoS.1.F.4.C).
The building of city is instantaneous, but not reversible. Therefore, it passes CoS.1.F.4.C.3. However, it is not a temporary change, nor is it a specific, one time change. It is a permanent change. Therefore, it does not pass CoS.1.F.4.C, and would not have been a valid poll had I caught it before it took effect.

Again Veera, you seem to have misread the rules on Quick Polls. CoS.1.F.4.C.3 clearly states that the "action item should be instantaneous or reversible/correctable." The key words being "should" and "or". The establishment of a city is, by definition, an instantaneous act. It doesn't have to meet the reversible/correctible part of the code because it states that it must be instantaneous or reversible/correctable. Furthermore, it only states that the action should meet these criteria, not must.

Originally posted by Veera Anlai
The large problem with our laws is that accursed 'Organize decisions' term. That elastic word *technically* makes it possible for leaders to do whatever they want without any input from the citizens. ... Seems like the monster of loopholes to me, as this rips the entire concept of Democracy to shreds.

On the contrary. This is, in fact, the very essence of democracy. Leaders are elected to represent the citizens. National Referendums are not conducted prior to declarations of war, or before trade deals are signed with foreign powers, or before cities are established (as if such decisions were actually under the control of a central authority...). It's safe to say that the citizens of Fanatika have a much stronger voice than any citizen of any democracy in the real world. There is no need to spread panic about a potential abuse of power that could not possibly take place, even under our current system of laws.

Originally posted by Veera Anlai
And if he wishes to use his power to merely Organize decisions and bypass the vote entirely, it's his own political funeral.

I fail to see how this is, in any way, an accurate depiction of what I'm trying to accomplish. If anything, I have gone out of my way to include the citizens in every aspect of my position this term. I am shocked by such a slanderous remark from a presumably impartial member of the judiciary, and I resent the implication.

 

[Veera Anlai]

Forty, you misread *my* post.
There are two standards that apply to quick polls. A poll must meet the criteria of both CoS.1.F.4.C AND CoS.1.F.4.C.3 before it can be considered legal. Your quick poll *did* meet the criteria of CoS.1.F.4.C.3 (instantaneous or reversible,) however, it did not meet the criteria of CoS.1.F.4.C (temporary or specific, one time decisions.)

On the contrary. This is, in fact, the very essence of democracy. Leaders are elected to represent the citizens.
...

That's the essence of a Republic, not a Democracy ;-)

And if he wishes to use his power to merely Organize decisions and bypass the vote entirely, it's his own political funeral.

I apologize for that; I was responding to Eyrei's post and a question he raised. I was stating that it was possible for any leader to abuse the organize clause, but instead, I used you as an example when it definitely wasn't proper to do so.

 

[FortyJ]

Veera
Apology accepted. I too apologize for losing my cool in my previous post. There should be no room in these discussions for such outbursts.

As far as the legitimacy of the poll in question, I can see your point, and I think it ultimately comes down to how we interpret the phrase "specific, one-time decisions". None of the examples given in either CoS.F.4.C.3.a or CoS.F.4.C.3.b touch on settler placement. Since the law does not specifically prohibit the action, then we must concede that the action is not against the law.

Furthermore, CoS.F.4.C.3.a.i mentions City Name Change as a valid example of what to use the Quick Polls for. As I have mentioned before, this action fails to meet just about every criteria listed for quick polls. It is not an action that is time-sensitive, nor is it really a one-time decision (as it can be done numerous times without impact on the outcome of the game).

Of course, all of this comes back to my original argument that our polling standards in general should be overhauled. I believe Eyrei's concerns on this matter are also justified. Our current system provides more power to spot votes taken during the turn chat than quick polls or even official polls or instructions from the duly elected leaders. This should not be the case.

Also, just for fun...
Democracy - Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
Republic - A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.