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Domination without ranged units

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by gobbledydook, Feb 5, 2016.

  1. gobbledydook

    gobbledydook Chieftain

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    Normally, when we talk about domination victories, we consider a few timings, like the CB rush, XB rush, Cannons, Artillery, Bombers, etc. Now it's well established that CB and XB rush are some of the most powerful forces you can build against the AI.

    But if you wanted to play with a UA like Minutemen, Samurai or Berserkers, how would you do it? Is a mass melee with siege support playstyle viable against Immortal and Deity?
     
  2. enslingkorp

    enslingkorp Chieftain

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    I cleaned out the CDG Ethiopia game without ranged units. I built lots of Warriors and did barb quests with them. Upgraded them to Swordsmen and Longswordsmen to repel the one DoW I had. Built Trebuchets and trained those later. Beelined Rifling and wiped everyone out really quickly.

    So its viable, but far from optimal. If you don't go Honor it might be pretty difficult.
     
  3. Aea

    Aea Chieftain

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    Honestly feel the only time you can pull this off is once you get Infantry. Infantry and Artillery is a very potent combination if you time it right.
     
  4. enslingkorp

    enslingkorp Chieftain

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    Well, you're wrong. It can be done with Trebuchets and Muskets, even.
     
  5. Aea

    Aea Chieftain

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    Let me rephrase that: The only time it makes strategic sense... [my previous post here]
     
  6. gobbledydook

    gobbledydook Chieftain

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    Infanfry is a bit far from artillery tech though...I find that cavalry artillery is more common. if you delayed for GWI or Infantry wouldn't you just give AI more time to tech flight?
     
  7. Aea

    Aea Chieftain

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    You're right, but the Cavalry + Artillery rush IMHO only works when the enemy has extremely low defenses. You typically see this more in MP when somebody is seriously neglecting their military then anything else. AI is typically good about maintaining armies large enough to avoid getting rushed that way so you need to augment it with ranged.

    Infantry on the other hand have such ridiculously crazy CS that they can basically wipe out any military opposition (provided they don't have Infantry of their own) and then use Artillery primarily for sieging a city.

    This is all from the perspective of MP and Immortal / Deity though.

    I don't think a Melee / Siege combination really works at any other time in the game. Heck I'm not sure siege is worth building before Cannons.
     
  8. gobbledydook

    gobbledydook Chieftain

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    Gatling guns suck though, you need range and logistics for them to be any use, and any crossbows that didn't make it that far just become fodder when I spent so much gold and hammers on them.

    Is there not a better way to bridge the gap between the machinery timing and the artillery timing, or can we skip crossbows altogether...
     
  9. Aea

    Aea Chieftain

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    Disagree on Gatling Guns (and Machine Guns, and Bazookas). They have a CS that's inline with the Melee Unit of the Era (Riflemen, Infantry) but do not take *any* damage when attacking, with the downside that they need to get into melee range.

    This is a huge break from the ranged paradigm but that doesn't mean they're not effective units. You simply use them [quite] differently and try avoid prolonged melee combat.
     
  10. Sclb

    Sclb Chieftain

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    Actually it has been done on the Persia CDG also, one of the achievement in fact.

    It almost always work on deity if your science is good enough for a rush. If not, you need to figure out how to get Arty faster. Only time it fails is a science runaway that manages to get to flight early, then you need flight for anti-air yourself and therefore you will have very short window if there is even one. Infantry is good if you started war early and keep upgrading melee units for cover promotions, assuming you haven't built many spear/pikes. Otherwise, mounted and later tanks are vastly superior for clearing enemy units and pillaging and capture. Artillery are much better used on cities.

    Gatlings with range promotion is a good unit, only problem is their upgrade costs from XB, and you have to expose them to cities to use them.
     
  11. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    It's quite easy, all you need is Tanks and Nukes :)

    I recommend the Germany ICL map as a starting point, where even though I started with Arty their movement of lack thereof caused me to keep pumping out Panzers which were, well, unfair :)

    but I suppose if you want to dial it down a bit, Muskets/Rifles definitely need something else to pair up
     
  12. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Morose & Lugubrious

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    if you're going for infantry (?..) and artillery or tanks and nukes you might aswell play a full science game, bulb to abombs and then to xcom, declare on every enemy AI simultaneously, drop a nuke on each cap and capture them next turn.

    I think enslingkorp gets it right. trebuchets are the earliest siege-line units that are usable, if one is going for a domination victory (not a tech assisted domv, an actual domv) one should build units and take cities as early as humanly possible.

    there are a few civs where this is actually the optimal way to go: zulu, danes, it also works with rome.

    generally it has to be said though that this is far from optimal and one will probably always get better finishing times by going for a timed push with xbows unless you're one of the three civs mentioned.

    the best option for later-game infantry pushing is still cav and arty, which has been pointed out earlier. infantry and arty makes absolutely zero sense seeing as you'll be fighting great war bombers (or even bombers) by the time you're at infantry, meaning your carefully promoted artillery is just going to get melted.

    tanks and nukes is always a good (and fun) option, but far from optimal when taking finishing times in consideration.
     
  13. enslingkorp

    enslingkorp Chieftain

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    I cant believe this is still being argued. Im not making it up. Rather than debate it forever people should just try it. Its harder than using Crossbows, sure. But its not impossible. The principles are the same, and actually, if it takes you longer, you have units that dont become useless.
     
  14. pollock

    pollock Chieftain

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    First vanilla civ 5 deity win came with germany and getting alot of free barb spearmen then upgrading too landsknecht. Ive won with Impi armys too. I shall try something based on a less gimmicky UU sometime soon :)
     
  15. fyar

    fyar Chieftain

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    This sounds like a fun challenge playstyle, along the lines of the one-city challenge or always war challenge. Must win by domination, but without any ranged units. I think for these purposes, to really make it a challenge, siege units should count as ranged units that you're not allowed to use (exception for battering rams/siege towers). Also, no chariot archers, or certain uniques like keshiks and camels. And for good measure, no planes or nukes either. That could be a difficult challenge, and would really help to nullify the huge tactical advantage that every human player has against the AI.
     
  16. enslingkorp

    enslingkorp Chieftain

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    Doing it without siege units takes most of the skill and enjoyment out of it, and just becomes a one-dimensnal spamming game
     
  17. The Disciple

    The Disciple Chieftain

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    Best I could do was Vanilla, King (5), 10 Player, Continents, Standard Time. Played as America and rushed Minutemen by 1000 AD. Had 3 supporting Trebuchets. Stormed straight through the Aztecs, who still only had Swords and Spears. Egypt sent Chariots against me (they didn't last long), but more resistance came from Cannon and Musket. Upgrading Minutemen to Rifles and then Infantry while continuing the fight. Managed to keep most of my original Minutemen - because their mobility translates to increased survivability. Pull back, heal, repeat. In the end, I had most of my troops with Drill III, Cover II, and March. When fortified on a hill, with a Citadel, and a medic unit behind, they are almost impossible to dislodge.

    Completely wiped out 4 civ's on my Continent... And then Persia built the UN on the other continent and won the game in 1933 :/ In hindsight, I should have been more selective with making my research agreements.
     
  18. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan Chieftain

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    Agree with you on Machine Guns and Bazookas, agree with Gobbledegook on Gatlings. Combat strength differential between Crossbows and Gatlings is 18 to 30, a 66% increase, which is slightly higher than the average unit upgrade but comes at the cost of 1 range and losing the ability to fire over a melee line. True, their melee strength increases even more which makes them more durable, but my experience (and it seems the experience of many here) is that crossbows have one of the widest windows of effectiveness, gatlings have one of the narrowest.
    Like most people here, when I first upgraded a Xbow and was so disappointed in the results, I figured, "well, I guess I'm done with archery units." However, when a CS gifted me a machine gun, I was amazed at it's effectiveness. The combat strength differential between gatlings and machine guns is 30 to 60, a full 100% increase which I think is the highest differential in the game. Their melee combat strength is also 60, so units attacking it are attacking a unit just shy of infantry strength, and they attack with impunity also just shy of infantry strength. I'm a fan of Machine Guns and Bazookas, but the Industrial Era is the Dark Ages of ranged units.

    But back to the OP, when I first read the title, "Domination without Ranged Units," I figured they meant domination without using any units that can fire with impunity, which would also include siege units.
    If siege units are not omitted, then it's very possible and one of the strategies that I've used a few times on Deity - just start the game turtling with a tech/infrastructure priority, and unleash hell once artillery are available.
    If siege units are omitted, it's a little trickier to get it done early, but there's still several possibilities:
    -Hunnic Battering Ram rush (though it would have to be on a small or tiny map; I find once the enemy has pikes in the way, it's hard to use them.)
    -Seige Towers - much longer window of effectiveness. Particularly good with Burnfire's 4UC mod, but very powerful without. Typically lend their bonus to Cbows, but with the ranged restriction could be very potent with pikes
    -Impi - the whole reason to play the Zulu - designed to take cities with none (or minimal) ranged support.

    And the simplest way to win Dom with melee units only is...
    -XCOMS - play the game as though you're going for a tech victory, get Mercantilism/Big Ben, go Autocracy for Mobilization. spam XCOMS (get a headstart by building paratroopers, very cheap upgrade) and put a spy or diplomat in every capital for vision. Drop 6 XCOMS per capital, game is won 1-2 turns later.
     
  19. Nigel_Tufnel2

    Nigel_Tufnel2 Chieftain

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    I actually use Gats quite often attacking cities. I always seem to have a few either protecting flanks and mopping up, or coming to the front to be a garrison later... If you've got some empty hexes next to the city, they can usually fire at will and take no damage, as long as there are some wounded melee in range. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever lost a Gat doing this.
     
  20. gobbledydook

    gobbledydook Chieftain

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    Stupid gatlings having 1 range means they don't offer enough concentrated firepower. Also they get in the way of each other and the city capturing unit.
     

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