"Don't convert my cities" logic flaw

This is a rather MODERN view on Religion. For most of human History, Religions were incredibly hostile towards one another. So much so, ongoing religious wars were the norm rather than the exception. There were situations where two or more Religions coexisted in the same area, but those were usually where one DOMINATED that area and the others were the Religions of the slaves. (Hebrews held in captivity by first Egypt, and then later Babylon, and still later by the Romans.)

Well ... yes ... but we were discussing your Religious Alliance with your neighbour ... Alliances are a rather modern concept and a mid-game mechanic. I imagine it has a similar effect as Cultural in that your religious pressure doesn't affect your alliance partner (though I don't actually know, I mostly just form a religious alliance for the bonuses to having an alliance such as policy cards). As well, your partner is likely to not actively attempt to convert your cities.

And the 'slave religions' are already considered in the game, as the followers of other religions in your otherwise dominated cities. Which then become the tolerated religions in our more modern ideas of religious freedom.

I believe the design intent in Civ was for Religions to engage in open warfare as they strove to, all of them, make themselves the One True Religion. But for the Americans among us, we just can't get those ideas of Freedom of Religion and "separation of Church and State" out of our heads. The religious combat mechanics makes it MUCH easy to initiate a 30 Years War than it is to establish any kind of ecumenical council. If anything, the program doesn't push hard enough to promote open religious warfare.

Then why are you questioning the AI getting upset at you converting one of its cities? The AI will clearly want their religion dominant, to the point that they rabidly send out missionaries and apostles to any city that at least doesn't have a majority religion. They do seem more hesitant to attempt converting cities of other religions, however. I often see apostle trains go through my territories but never attempt to convert my cities if they have a religion already. Though I have also seen pitched apostle battles of rival civs around my cities when I don't discover my own. There seems to be a trigger in the AI where they won't attempt direct conversions of cities if you have established a religion, but you're open game otherwise. Perhaps it depends on how much they like you, since conversion is seen as a provocation much the same as spies are. In a way, I wouldn't mind more aggressive religious converting, but then I remember the high levels of annoyance with that in Civ V, so I'm not sure which I'd rather have.

But there are mid/late game mechanics in place to promote religious warfare, or at least the effect thereof. The Holy War casus belli, for a start, as well as the World Congress vote where you can allow everyone to squash a particular religion's religious units.

As to why the AI wasn't trying to get the converted city back right away, likely just the quirk of the AI coding. It seems to me that the AI often gets locked into a particular action, such as really wanting to convert some city state on the opposite side of your empire, and will send its stream of missionaries/apostles to ensure it gets it, fighting endlessly with other religions to do so.

I remember one game in which I baited Dutch apostles to a nearby city state so that my Debaters could demolish them, thereby convincing Wilhemina to send more (also showing the absence of any attempt to convert my actual cities). Or another game where I began questioning why I was bothering converting a city state, knowing full well that the Aztecs would come a-running ... and lo, a few turns later, there came the horde of blue missionaries out of the fog of war.

So it could have just been the AI locked into an action to its detriment. Or perhaps it calculated that religious pressure would eventually bring its city back into the fold. Or perhaps the benefits it was receiving from the rival religion were enough to convince the AI to not bother with re-converting.

But in any case, as said before; AI sees one of its cities converted to a different religion that its own, from a civ that effectively promised not to do that, so it triggers a 'Stop that' response to you.
 
I remember one game in which I baited Dutch apostles to a nearby city state so that my Debaters could demolish them, thereby convincing Wilhemina to send more (also showing the absence of any attempt to convert my actual cities). Or another game where I began questioning why I was bothering converting a city state, knowing full well that the Aztecs would come a-running ... and lo, a few turns later, there came the horde of blue missionaries out of the fog of war.
Something as a tangent, I'd like to suggest a strategy that works quite well for me. When I crank out my Apostles and send them off to do their thing, I always have them retain ONE conversion charge. Then they get parked near a city that other religious units are likely to come at. Religious battle ensues. Whenever an opposing Religion loses a combat to one of my Apostles next to a city, that Religion loses 250 conversion points while my Religion gains 250. It's like a double whammy conversion action.Naturally my Apostles take damage from these combats, but if I run them back to one of my cities with a Holy Site, they can heal back up to 100%. Then they get sent back to the front lines to rinse and repeat. (I have Apostles that are literally centuries old.)

Additionally, I often park a one-charge Apostle on top of an opposing Religion's Holy Site. As long as it's there, the civ can't create a religious unit there. Cover ALL of their Holy Sites, and suddenly that Religion has NO units in the field. Furthermore, simply having one of your religious units in another civ's territory does NOT generate a grievance. (Conversion attempts only.) So my loitering around -- just "happening" to be camped out on Holy Sites -- doesn't create any adverse Diplomatic consequences.
 
Additionally, I often park a one-charge Apostle on top of an opposing Religion's Holy Site. As long as it's there, the civ can't create a religious unit there. Cover ALL of their Holy Sites, and suddenly that Religion has NO units in the field.
I haven't played around with Religion in a while, but I'm pretty sure the last time I did, I was able to create Religious units in my city centers.

Or, at least I was able to purchase Religious Units in both my Holy Site and City Center, thus 2 per city.
 
I haven't played around with Religion in a while, but I'm pretty sure the last time I did, I was able to create Religious units in my city centers.

Or, at least I was able to purchase Religious Units in both my Holy Site and City Center, thus 2 per city.
I haven't seen that. What I do see is that if I have a religious unit sitting on top of my Holy Site, I won't be able to buy a new Missionary or Apostle. (Much like if you have a Builder sitting in a City Center, you can't buy another one until the first one moves out. Or if you a General or Great Person in the City Center, you can't move AND STOP another one of those in that City Center.)

Since I took to parking an Apostle on top of Holy Sites, no new enemy religious units have appeared in those cities. What they normally do is create an Apostle at a different city and then have it come and try to destroy my unit there.
 
I disagree. You would be mad against both enemy religions. Both converted a city of yours to another religion. Sure, the second one didnt do it from your own religion. But it is still applying his religion to one of your cities, which you want to convert to your religion again
 
I haven't seen that. What I do see is that if I have a religious unit sitting on top of my Holy Site, I won't be able to buy a new Missionary or Apostle. (Much like if you have a Builder sitting in a City Center, you can't buy another one until the first one moves out. Or if you a General or Great Person in the City Center, you can't move AND STOP another one of those in that City Center.)

Since I took to parking an Apostle on top of Holy Sites, no new enemy religious units have appeared in those cities. What they normally do is create an Apostle at a different city and then have it come and try to destroy my unit there.

Hmm, well, I have tested this out just last night, and I could make a second Apostle in my holy city after keeping the first one on the Holy Site. Did you perhaps have an inquisitor or something hidden away in your city when you attempted to create a second religious unit?

As for the enemy civ creating one from another city. Perhaps the city you were parked at no longer had the rival civ's religion as dominant? It may also just be a case of it cycling through the city list and using the first one with a holy site. Still, parking on an enemy's holy site is advantageous ... I seem to remember that there is some boost for religious units on their own holy sites, though I can't remember from where; if it's inherent or something from perhaps Theocracy or what. I just have a vague memory of getting the smack down from on high from an apostle on a holy site and having to pull away to reduce some bonuses they were getting.
 
This doesn't bother me at all, I don't think it's so unlogical.
What however is unlogical and silly and related to your thread title is when an enemy apostole comes to my empire, I kill him with my apostole (as a defensive act), this spreads my religion to his territory and he is upset.

What is worse is when I don't even have a religion and when killing the dozens of apostles of a common enemy my friend is getting mad at me for spreading religion to his cities. I killed him for this of course.

Still getting grievances for spreading a religion when I didn't even found one (I was Gorgo for crying out loud, I kill people for culture...) is silly.
 
I haven't seen that. What I do see is that if I have a religious unit sitting on top of my Holy Site, I won't be able to buy a new Missionary or Apostle. (Much like if you have a Builder sitting in a City Center, you can't buy another one until the first one moves out. Or if you a General or Great Person in the City Center, you can't move AND STOP another one of those in that City Center.)

Since I took to parking an Apostle on top of Holy Sites, no new enemy religious units have appeared in those cities. What they normally do is create an Apostle at a different city and then have it come and try to destroy my unit there.
Well if I had to take a shot in the dark, I would guess that you could purchase a Religious Unit in the Holy Site and then another in the City Center. But if a foreign unit was parked atop your Holy Site, then you wouldn't be able to purchase a Religious Unit in either the Holy Site or the City Center. But, as I said, that's just a guess.
 
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