Don't use the Stack of Death Strategy

zeeter

Emperor
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Messages
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Major war with the Americans. It is 1950 or so and I've been at war since around 1910. They have about fifty cities or so and I have about thirty. I have a significant advantage in production, helped greatly in recent years as my retaliatory nuclear stike decimated the American's most productive cities. They only got one of my cities - interestingly, it was probably my least productive city.

Anyway, what's the point? Here goes. I began this war using the Stack of Death strategy. I loaded up ten transports with MA, RA, and MI and sent them over. Then I would send about four more transports every other turn or so. The results were that while I was able to conquer a city or two with every invasion, the Americans were able to push back my attacks - knocking out a stack of twenty MI using 20 MA. The war was going nowhere. I'd lose troops, replace them, then lose the new troops. The Americans were completely unable to counter attack, as I sunk their entire fleet and blockaded the only real accessible shipping lanes to my continent. They have only one major city left that I haven't nuked, and that is only because I live near Philadelphia (in real life) and have some qualms about hitting that city. Still, I could not make any inroads into the continent other than some coastal cities. To complicate matters further, the American continent is basically one big square. There are no defensible positions to hold so that the enemy cannot get through. I can be attacked from any side at any time. Conversely, my lands have four choke points separating three sections of land. It is the most easily defended homeland I've ever had.

Last night I tried a different plan. After an ill-advised government cou on my part (I accidentally hit ctrl-G, then accidentally hit the wrong option) I was stuck without any production for six turns. This gave me a chance to sit back and reflect on my battle plans.

First, no more RA. Against the Americans they will slow me down too much. RA must first be landed (one turn), then moved into position (one turn), before they can be used. For every invasion I have been able to attack once with my RA before the Americans took them. The result of this is that whenever I lose the RA, the Americans get them. And I do protect them - covering a stack of fifteen with about ten MI. It just seems that the Americans go for that stack first. As stated earlier, since there are no defensible positions on this continent the RA are always vulnerable to attack. On a different landscape I would move my RA to positions just behind the lines so that they can use their ranged attack, but be protected by the front lines. Since there really aren't any front lines here, that is almost impossible.

Second - limit my MI. Since they are roughly the same cost as MA, it makes more sense for my invasion to use almost all MA. I am not keeping cities, and the MI cannot keep up with the MA enough to protect them.

Third - continue nuking the larger American cities. Keep them from having the ability to rebuild their army.

Fourth - when attacking a larger enemy, the SOD plan does not work. I followed up a few turns after my anarchy was over with a fleet of twenty transports loaded with mostly MA, about ten percent MI, and a few workers to begin the cleanup of pollution from the nukes once I had gained a defendable foothold. Incidentally, has anyone ever tried to move a stack of over 180 units out from a city? It is a pain.

Once I landed, I broke my army up into divisions of ten to fifteen MA. The biggest benefit here is that I have about ten divisions that can attack per turn; some of the stacks more than once. Using the SOD tactic I can only really attack once or twice per turn. My new method gives me ten to twenty attacks per turn.

Since I can attack so many times per turn now, I can take out more of their cities, further reducing thier ability to build their defenses.

I also don't keep cities unless they have a great wonder in them. Two reasons for this. For one, I can use the workers gained from the cities capture to clean up the pollution when the war is over (although I'd get them anyway) and secondly I don't have to worry about defending the city. This late in the game everyone's culture is so high that I'd have to keep almost an entire division within the city in order to keep it from revolting.

I have been able to attack for two turns now, and will let everyone know tomorrow how the rest of my war went.
 
I would advise you take one city and rush an airport, then provided all your citys have them you can airlift in troops as fast as they are produced back home, and not have to worry about transports. Then just take their citys one at a time and burn them.
 
Good idea ralph. That was my original intention, and it was successful at first, however the city got captured in one of those "thow fifty MA at the city and it will finally be recaptured" attacks by the Americans. I will do that once I get a foothold on the continent - someplace that is defendable. It also doesn't help that I'm in communism and cannot rush-build something without pop-rushing. I try not to do that even though the people are really just magnetic ink.
 
You can see if you can cut off their strategic resources. See if they have the necessary materials available to build their units, or if they import them. If they are internal, see if you can get some units over to pillage the resources, or nuke the strategic resources. If they are trading to get them, try to cut off their sources of stuff. Use trade embargos or incite their suppliers to go to war against them.

I was losing a major war in a previous game that was going to turn against me, but then I was able to get in and cut off their resources through pillaging and buying trade embargos/military alliances, and once they stopped producing their advanced units, I was able to march over them a lot easier. You will have to deal with what is left (MAs, MIs, Reg. Infantry, Tanks) but after that, they are sitting ducks.

Make sure you keep an eye on the resource in question. Do not let them connect them back up, no matter what.
 
Originally posted by zeeter
It also doesn't help that I'm in communism and cannot rush-build something without pop-rushing.
Oh dear...

I suggest another revolution - communism is a pile of sh!te in the game. I rekon the programmers are all commie-haters.
 
Good advice, Nightfang. One of the first things that I did was to nuke any cities with plutonium. That protected me for a while from nukes. I then bombed the hell out of anything that had aluminum and rubber, plus any stray oil that he had. I don't remember if he had that. I then went after any luxeries. This had to be continuous as every time I knocked out a resource he had a settler ready to build a new city or a worker ready to build a colony. I kept a fleet of seven aircraft carriers stationed offshore to handle this. It didn't help matters that the F-15's kept on shooting down my planes, but the carriers were relatively safe because they had no navy. Actually, I'm not sure why he never sent any bombers after my carriers. I wonder if the AI regards carriers as highly as I do... They are the perfect tool for knocking out resources. Other than nukes, that is.
 
Originally posted by anarres
Oh dear...

I suggest another revolution - communism is a pile of sh!te in the game. I rekon the programmers are all commie-haters.

I was in democracy up until I got into the future techs. I switched to communism to keep away the war weariness. Even raising the happiness way up doesn't keep them happy in Democracy.
 
YOu did not mention Naval bombardment or bombers.
Select a defensible position or positins on the coast, and cut all road/ rail lines to it. Meke sure you have at least two tiles of space, preferably forrest, hills or tundra between your city and their nearest road. Then build your city, airport, walls (important fir the first attacks) and Arty to stop tyeir MA before they get there. Good arty bombardment can reduce an MA to 1 o4 2 points, and then your MA can take them out
So they can come from all sides, but if the roads are gone, they have to spend a movement point, within your attack range, before they can attack.
 
Originally posted by zeeter
I was in democracy up until I got into the future techs. I switched to communism to keep away the war weariness. Even raising the happiness way up doesn't keep them happy in Democracy.
That's what Republic is for. Worst case scenario go for Monarchy, Communism just doesn't work in 99% of situations in the game...
 
It is interesting that you should say that. Other comments from this board suggest that going to communism while at war is the best way to go.

What is the difference, with war wearines, between Republic and Democracy?
 
Republic has mid level war weariness while Demo has the high level.

Side note: Is there a single true democracy in the world today? A representative Democracy such as the US, UK, France, Germany, Japan, Austria, .......... are republics.
 
zeeter,

Your experience of this board is different from mine. I am not going to try and persuade you, but there are many threads on the issue.

This post by Charis is one of the best summaries of communism I've ever read. The thread it's in is also an interesting read. There are a few people who support communism (especially near the beginning of the thread), but people like Killer, DaveMcW, Charis and Bamspeedy all make good points against communism in almost all cases. These are some of the most respected people here for their knowledge of the game.
 
I use communism to fight all my wars. I am usually far enough ahead to keep up tech wise and the corruption is worth not having to deal with war weariness.
 
I tried communism, and did not like it. Perhaps, because I like to keep production going during a war.
I have had democracy collapse with war weariness, even though every eligible city had WLTK going.
I have been at war now, far long than I intended, and it is beginning to take its toll. I completed my planned campaign, but then Germany declared war on me.... I may have to sue for peace, after a few lessons, and give my people rest.
I have had success waging war in republican.
I have all luxuries --- some of them captured... and temples and/cathedrals in most cities.

However, the luxury slider is at 10% The most difficult cities are the far flung ones, especially those captured. Their produc tion is so low, that taking 60% or 70% or their 0$ contribution to the treasury doesn't help them much... I will increase luxury spending if the central core cities start to get unhappy.
 
(by the way... PHILLY ROCKS!!!! ;) )

First of all, if you nuked all of their cities, how come the enemy has so many units to throw at you? If you are going to start a war, at least be able to match their production. During a war you don't build a stack, throw it at them and hope it breaks their lines. You build a stack for a battle, take a key position and plan to defend the position from the counter attack. This requires taking a key city or two, rushing an airport, library/temple, barracks, and optionally a harbor. After your airport is there, start dumping units from your production cities into that airport and wait for the enemy to come.

You might want to isolate yourself by bombing all the RR and roads outside the cultural borders of the city so that it takes their units an extra turn to get to you and you can bombard them before they get to you to scare their units off or counter attack with MA and eliminate their units, thus putting the control in your hands (this "firewall" tactic is my favorite).

In fact I find most wars are like a four stroke fencing match. Attack, wait for his counter, counter his counter, and then attack. It sounds like you aren't prepared enough for his counter attack after you've invaded and he's pumping out enough units

Once you've stemmed the tide of their units, and have your production going full force, you should be able to start marching, keeping the AI on its heels while it tries to counter attack. Raze some cities while keeping others so that if the AI counters he won't gain back much.

Look for the interesting tactics displayed above. Sounds like you are concentrating a lot on strategy but tactics are important too. The stack of doom works because it concentrates your force into a small area that the AI doesn't think to nuke very often. Keep the stack going but keep it on high ground, or in a city with lots of people, and use MI for defense. MA suck for defense, MI have 50% more and when you stick them in a pop 13+ city or on a mountain that multiplies and adds up.

You can also use the firewall strategy in conjunction with a well placed nuke if you don't mind nuking some of your territory. Knock out all roads and RR near a city that you can defend (I.E. its the only city you took so far or its a lynchpin to defend the rest of your cities, wait for the AI to send its stack of doom at you, cross the firewall, and then drop a nuke or two BEHIND the SoD, wiping it out. Note this will pollute some of your territory but won't nuke the city your in (thats why you drop behind the Sod, the SoD will be in the nuke radius but the city won't).

I saw a SoD recently invade my territory. I usually like to pick them apart with my own units, but I decided "screw it, nuke the bastids." Works like a charm and clean up is easy! ;)
 
Originally posted by Nightfang
You can see if you can cut off their strategic resources. See if they have the necessary materials available to build their units, or if they import them. If they are internal, see if you can get some units over to pillage the resources, or nuke the strategic resources. If they are trading to get them, try to cut off their sources of stuff. Use trade embargos or incite their suppliers to go to war against them.

I done that with my current war with the Egyptians. Its more or less right on the Nuclear Age, with the Manhatten Project built and we're both rushing to get nukes. but the Egyptian's only supply of Uranium is 2 tiles from my border. easy prey for my bombers. because of this I'm going to MA instead to try and rush them without the need for the rep destroying nuke. Their only rubber supply is also within my reach so its also nice to deprive them of MI. I'm gonna beat them silly
 
Originally posted by anarres
That's what Republic is for. Worst case scenario go for Monarchy, Communism just doesn't work in 99% of situations in the game...

I always stay on Monarchy. Its just a habbit. not tried it on the higher difficulties though...... getting a feeling I'd get beaten pretty badly on Emperor or Diety with Monarchy
 
@steviejay: Good observation ;)

On the higher difficulties you need every gold coin you can scramble together. Republic can last an amazingly long time at war, especially when the other civ declares it. It is also not too difficult to annoy another civ to the point of them declaring war...
 
Let me clear a few things up here. I was misleading before when I said that I nuked all of his cities. I actually nuked all of his major cities: Washington, Boston, NYC - about ten in all. There were some that were surrounded by grassland, so I figured their production wouldn't be great enough to worry about. He also had many cities that he'd captured from the Japanese, and I only nuked two of them, although I can't seem to hit Tokyo for some reason. The SDI keeps getting my missiles.

I tried my multi-pronged approach last night. I captured about six cities in three turns. I had a stack of MI on a fortress square with a bunch of workers under it. This was my rally-point. I'd send MA back here to recover from battle, and regroup my MA stacks accordingly. I turned my attention to Miami - a size thirty city. With a little bit of bombardment I was able to take the city after two turns. Up until now the war had been uneventful. I won every objective that I'd gone after, but it was costly. Miami was suprisingly difficult to take.

Anyway, Lincoln came to me asking for peace. I took it as a means to regroup. I also took a recently aquired GL and put an airport in Miami. I filled it with a bunch of Infantry in the next turn, and based on some comments in this thread I decided to switch to a Republic government. It would be six turns before I could get to republic. There were also five transports of MA and MI enroute to America. In turn two of my anarchy, the rotten Americans sneak attacked me. They came at Miami with everything they had - not the least of which was a stack of thirty MI and forty RA. Miami went from a size 24 city (from it's original 30 before I took it) to a size 13 in one turn. Meanwhile, I could produce anything, but did airlift every available MI to Miami.

My defenses held for another turn, while my transports landed. Originally they were to go to Miami in six turns, but I had to redirect them to the nearest coastline in two turns. I also moved every available fighter jet to Miami. Even the ones on Carriers. The next turn resulted in Miami becoming a size five city. My recently landed stack was able to move finally. I now diverted all of my attention onto the MI/RA stack outside of Miami. I hit it with everything I had prior to the ground assault. When I was done, I had six MA from an original amount of thirty, but I now had the 40 RA in the stack. Now it was a matter of moving them two squared over to Miami. I moved six MI out to cover them, along with all of the MI that had landed previously, there were about twenty total. Miami lasted another turn, but was reduced to size one. A wiser man would have abandoned the city, moved all of the workers out, sent the fighters and bombers to the nearby carrier. Covered the RA with all remaining troops. Not me, though. I was determined to keep Miami (which, after the second turn of this conflict was again without an Airport).

Anyway, Miami was lost, and my troops were isolated. twenty MI and about six or seven MA who were already decimated. I took the RA and bombed the hell out of every road and rail nearby and used bombers from carriers to get to the roads out of the RA's range. For the next turn, the AI will be limited to one attack per MA as they'll have to use two movements just to get into striking range. My dilemma now was to either revert the transports that dropped off my latest batch of troops up north to pick up the remainder of my troops, or send them home and hope that these troops could hold out for a few turns. Mind you, there was absolutely no air cover whatsoever as I'd lost my jets in Miami. My anarchy was over, and production was split between fighter jets, MI and MA. I decided to see if they could hold out. THe risk here is that the Americans will take back their RA. We'll see how it goes.

This has been a long post, but for those that stuck around and read it, what could I have done differently? There was some bad luck involved. Switching to anarchy at that point was not wise. Nor was holding onto Miami when it was a lost cause. Complicate this by the Americans getting some incredible rolls during their attacks. I'm talking a MA with two health knocking out an elite MI with full strength.
 
You should include a settler per transport (or two transports) when you are moving troops to another continent for the first time.

If you can create multiple new cities while you are also taking his cities you can create multiple fronts. One of them will hold and your invasion will succeed.
 
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