doubts on 1st city placement

[cornerback24]

An early habit I took as I was playing Civ II was to settle my first city in the very spot the given settler happend to be at the start, despite of the (ah..good ol' times when games came out with paper game guides!) guide suggestion of hangin' around with it to find a decent location. I remember reading around somewhere that a better placement wouldn't outpay the loss of production, research and gold caused by the delay in my empire's foundation... Right or wrong, I've been sticking up to this strategy all the way through my Civ3 experience... fast expanding my empire would soon cover up misplacement of my capital.
Now, here I am in BtS, few games played and a lot to learn... ok, I've learnt at my expence that overexpanding in the early game is a suicide. This gives my first city placement a different weight in the game strategy... So:

1) should I keep up with my first turn=first city rule?

2) how much should I trust locations suggested by the game (the blue circle ones, I mean)?

 

[Willem]

1) should I keep up with my first turn=first city rule?

99% of the time I find that the very first location is the best one. Occasionaly you can move one tile here or there to get a better location but mainly it's good to just plop your city down where you start the game.

2) how much should I trust locations suggested by the game (the blue circle ones, I mean)?

I don't. The computer can never do as good of a job as you in determining the optimal city locations. I think it's a mistake to use them myself, you'll just end up building your empire like the AIs.

 

[Onagan]

But it seems that the Blue Circles are place with the hidden resources in mind.

 

[Supr49er]

But it seems that the Blue Circles are place with the hidden resources in mind.

This has been a longstanding debate. All in all, you are better off using your own judgment. Capitals are usually very productive sites.

Welcome to the Forums cornerback24.

 

[Willem]

That's not true. The blue circles do not indicate any hidden resources, only existing ones.

 

[oranges]

Even if the blue circles consider invisible resources, you're still better off using your own judgment without that info. It just loves to indicate poor spots for the city -- one tile away from coast or river and missing one resource at the same time happens all the time and in most of those cases there are no resources to be discovered later on.

 

[Yxklyx]

That's not true. The blue circles do not indicate any hidden resources, only existing ones.

From my experience that does not seem to be the case, at least with respect to the first city. Several times, I've moved one space away to what in all appearances is a better tile - then later I see Iron or Copper pop up that is only reachable from the original space I started the game in. The computer's initial recommendation seems to take into account currently unknown resources.

 

[cornerback24]

Welcome to the Forums cornerback24.

Thanks, this place is great and I'm learnig a lot... besides, I haven't any civ game installed at work (or I'd live in the office) and the forums help with the abstinence...

I don't like to overlap too much, but as I usually fill the spaces between cities quite early (another old habit: never leave unsettled squares) I'm pretty sure I don't miss the hidden resouces... but I'm working on the city spec thing, so I might face the problem in the next games...

 

[Iranon]

Also, the computer can't know what your overall system of placing cities is. Minimal overlap so one set of infrastructure boosts 15+ cottages? Tight spacing in anticipation of a whipping frenzy? Ultra-wide spacing to cover land while leaving room for filler cities once you have multiple trade routes and other per-city-bonuses?

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

Even if the AI can see oil before you get the tech, it doesn't really matter. Oil isn't a very productive tile with a well, just +2h +1c. I'd rather have oil outside my city radius so I don't have to work such a horrible tile.

Of course, coal and aluminium are a different story, but still, I wouldn't rearrange my whole city placement strategy just to accomodate one or two bonus tiles.

 

[omnimutant]

The only time I would not scout out a better spot would be if I was rushing for a particular religion thats hard to grab early, such a Budism or whatever.

It never hurts to move a few squares to find a good spot, although I always play on Marathon so a few turn defecit is not at all hard to make up.

 

[pxpdoo]

Well I suppose I'm just a gambler, then; I plop my city right the F where my settler is, 97.3% of the time. The only time I'll move it is when it's not on a coast, but a coast is close.
Seafaring Techs "R" Us...

 

[Kesshi]

That's not true. The blue circles do not indicate any hidden resources, only existing ones.

Willem,

This is just my gut feeling but it seems that blue circles show up even where resources are, even in the black fog of war. That counts as a "hidden resource" to me, but not an "undiscovered resource."

 

[MqsTout]

I start most of my games with "advance start" on but set to only 100 points, enough to place your first city but that's it. It gives you about a radius of 4 squares from your starting location to choose from.

 

[Red Dwarf Devil]

For the issue with the Blue circle locations suggested by the Comp , Once in the mid game I had a spare settler and was looking to build a city.

The blue circles would appear and as I moved towards the general area other would POP up and suggest a different spot, I quickly learned it was suggesting spots on what it could see so the end story was your settler could end up roaming around for ages.

Best you pick what you think is a good location and go for it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

From my experience that does not seem to be the case, at least with respect to the first city. Several times, I've moved one space away to what in all appearances is a better tile - then later I see Iron or Copper pop up that is only reachable from the original space I started the game in. The computer's initial recommendation seems to take into account currently unknown resources.

Be that as it may, if you're settling sites where you're going to EVENTUALLY get something like aluminum or oil, that's not going to help you in the early game. You may never see such resources!

 

[Rusty Edge]

I 've seen the circles move, too.

I've also seen resources revealed by techs that would have been in the fat cross of the city, had I founded it in the blue circle.

The way I see it, anything I automate in this game will be done no better than the A.I.does it. I try to figure out why the comp favors a city site.
If it's apparent to me, then I can compare and evaluate it for the purposes I had in mind for the particular city. If it's not apparent, I suspect hidden resources, but I keep in mind that a hidden resource might be something like whales that has a limited window, or uranium that comes late enough not to concern myself with it...

I don't stray far. I think I always found a city on or before the second turn.

 

[SlightlyMad]

Starting settler placement takes hidden resources into account, but the blue circles only take into account what you can see. Keep in mind though, that the blue circles don't focus on making any individual spot the most awesome city possible, but rather the most efficient way to lay out multiple cities with each other. It loves to overlap cities on resources, and squeeze in 2 good cities where only 1 awesome city would fit.

Usually, 2 good cities are better than 1 awesome city, but use your own judgment here. When choosing the site for a city I know will become my Ironworks/Wall Street/National Park city or the like, I'll frequently ignore the blue circles for it.

 

[Fresh Oracle]

The only time I would not scout out a better spot would be if I was rushing for a particular religion thats hard to grab early, such a Budism or whatever.

It never hurts to move a few squares to find a good spot, although I always play on Marathon so a few turn defecit is not at all hard to make up.

Ditto. Searching for the best place for a first city seems like Marathon speed strategy.

 

[MrG]

Did I not hear somewhere that the best strategy at above Prince is to move your settler away from the coast to enable you to block off some land from your opponents early on.

If I didn't imagine it what's the best way of going about that, bearing in mind I play bog standard Prince games....