Drill and First Strikes?

[Blaarg]

When I first started playing this game, I always used to get Drill for my archers.

Now, after playing the game a bit, I've come to the conclussion that the combat promotions are just superior in every way.

I'm not exactly sure how the combat system works, so I don't know why Combat is superior, it just seems that way. On top of that, the combat line seems to unlock more promotions (like commando) that Drill does not. I just don't see a reason to take Drill.

Am I correct in my thinking?

Is there a situation where Drill is better than Combat?

 

[Mesousa]

I'd suggest you check this thread, particularly the First Strike section in the second post.

 

[PMabey]

City Garrison for all archers, except Xbows, which get combat 1 on the way to shock.

 

[RomanHoliday]

I found the same uselessness with Drill. Its only good if you have a killer First Strike and your opponent isn't very strong; in which case, you don't need a First Strike.

I have tried different combinations and Drill does NOT give me an edge in battle.

 

[Galileo44]

Drill will not really give you a big advatage in battle. I have found that its usefullness is when you have superior troops. Having first strikes will allow you to kill units and move on without damage. This is very powerful if you are the first to tanks, as blitz makes drill promos even better. If you can kill a unit with only the first stikes, then it will not damage you, and you can start attacking right away, next turn, or again the same turn with blitz.

 

[JoeBlade]

I've just run a little test to appease my on curiosity: I created a stack of 20 Crossbowmen, gave them all Drill 4 and made them fight against 20 barb Crossbowmen. I then repeated this with Combat 4 instead.

Result: in the former case the combat odds were 87.7%, while in the latter they were slightly higher at 89.6%. However, the survivors had 3.58/6 HP left on average after the first battle and 3.31/6 HP after the second.
It's a very minimal test scenario so don't take this as gospel. It appears the combat odds are slightly in favour of Combat promotions though, whereas the survivors' HP is genererally a bit higher with Drill promotions.

With this in mind I'd say both promotion lines are comparable in terms of direct combat effectiveness. I do agree however that the promotions combat unlocks are generally more desirable.
Still, I definitely wouldn't label the Drill promotions 'useless' as they do increase combat odds in your favour, nearly as much as straight Combat promotions.

 

[malekithe]

created a stack of 20 Crossbowmen, gave them all Drill 4 and made them fight against 20 barb Crossbowmen. I then repeated this with Combat 4 instead.

Keep in mind that Drill promotions get consistently better as you move up through them. Combat, on the other hand, stays the same at each level. As such, Drill IV is a much more powerful promotion than Combat IV (unless you're getting it for the extra healing), whereas Drill I is much worse than Combat I. Repeat your test with only Drill II and Combat II and I'd imagine you'll get different results. For units that start with a Drill promotion or enough experience to get all the way up to Drill III, taking extra Drill promotions makes sense, otherwise, if you want them to be useful in the short-term, you're often better off with something else.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Drill now unlocks all the unit-specific bonuses(to my knowledge), so it is further strengthened compared to the Combat line...

 

[JoeBlade]

Keep in mind that Drill promotions get consistently better as you move up through them. Combat, on the other hand, stays the same at each level. As such, Drill IV is a much more powerful promotion than Combat IV (unless you're getting it for the extra healing), whereas Drill I is much worse than Combat I. Repeat your test with only Drill II and Combat II and I'd imagine you'll get different results. For units that start with a Drill promotion or enough experience to get all the way up to Drill III, taking extra Drill promotions makes sense, otherwise, if you want them to be useful in the short-term, you're often better off with something else.

Oh for sure, but OTOH Vassalage or Theocracy as well as the HE are typically around by the time the choice truly becomes relevant. Moreover, I've performed the test with the notorious Protective trait in mind to some extent, so I assumed units that could be built with at least Drill 3 off the bat.

I'd never even consider an individual Drill promotion on an early unit, no argument there. Combat is definitely the better choice then.

 

[Blaarg]

Drill now unlocks all the unit-specific bonuses(to my knowledge), so it is further strengthened compared to the Combat line...

Explain?

AFAIK, you can't get Commando, Amphibious, March, etc, with the Drill line.

 

[Blaarg]

Oh for sure, but OTOH Vassalage or Theocracy as well as the HE are typically around by the time the choice truly becomes relevant. Moreover, I've performed the test with the notorious Protective trait in mind to some extent, so I assumed units that could be built with at least Drill 3 off the bat.

I'd never even consider an individual Drill promotion on an early unit, no argument there. Combat is definitely the better choice then.

Oh, heh, I'm still playing Vanilla. No protective traits here, another feather in the cap for the combat line!

 

[civ_king]

if u have theo+vassalage+protective+barracks= drill 3. if u r charismatic then Theo+vassalage+Barracks=2 and 1xp short of 3.if generals are used (in city) then 2gns+above+protective=drill 4 with 11exp,same charismatic then 2 xp short of drill 4

if churchill then drill4 and next unit in 2xp

hope that helps

 

[Galileo44]

Protective + (Vasselage OR Theocracy OR settled GG OR Pentagon OR West Point) + barracks = Drill 3

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Drill now unlocks all the unit-specific bonuses(to my knowledge), so it is further strengthened compared to the Combat line...

As in Formation, Shock, Cover, etc.. If anything, I question the use of combat line. Mostly my stacks are composed of city raiders with some properly-promoted stack defenders and maybe a few archery units with drill promotions to clean up, if necessary, who also rock on hills. Combat is just too vanilla for its own good, really. The only thing I give Combat to in an extensive manner(i.e. not just for shock) is cavalry and sometimes war elephants...

 

[Arlborn]

As in Formation, Shock, Cover, etc.. If anything, I question the use of combat line. Mostly my stacks are composed of city raiders with some properly-promoted stack defenders and maybe a few archery units with drill promotions to clean up, if necessary, who also rock on hills. Combat is just too vanilla for its own good, really. The only thing I give Combat to in an extensive manner(i.e. not just for shock) is cavalry and sometimes war elephants...

I do something like that too..

And Drill 3 and 4 are better than combat 3 and 4 to my taste..

 

[JoeBlade]

As in Formation, Shock, Cover, etc.. If anything, I question the use of combat line. Mostly my stacks are composed of city raiders with some properly-promoted stack defenders and maybe a few archery units with drill promotions to clean up, if necessary, who also rock on hills. Combat is just too vanilla for its own good, really. The only thing I give Combat to in an extensive manner(i.e. not just for shock) is cavalry and sometimes war elephants...

Great, after several months of v2.08 Warlords I still learn something new This certainly makes Drill a whole lot more appealing.

 

[malekithe]

As in Formation, Shock, Cover, etc.. If anything, I question the use of combat line.

Odd, that... I mostly just question the use of formation, shock, cover, etc.

Also, if all you want Drill for is as a path to the unit-specific promotions, you're far better off with Combat I than Drill I anyway

 

[Validator]

FYI, there a couple of relevant points that haven't been mentioned yet.

First, Drill promotions reduce the amount of damage the unit suffers from collateral damage attacks.

Second, there are units that are immune to first strikes, in which case Drill promotions are worthless.

 

[CivDude86]

Yup, always bring a pike or elephant with your drill xbow stack or you'll see all those drill4 promos thrown away as they got owned by knights. Drill4 does get +10% vs mounted but it doesn't make up the lost of 4-7 FS.