Drill and Flanking: Red herrings, or am I missing something?

[UWHabs]

Drill is best when you have a big tech edge. Drill infantry are better against longbows and muskets than combat infantry. The other edge in drill is the XP boosts. When you have a D4 unit at the sweet spot where you have like 99% combat odds to win, AND you get 3XP from a win, they're great. Other time I use drill a lot is ships. I'd rather a D3 battleship than a C3 battleship most of the time (if only drill3 opened up blitz like C3 does).

Flanking is good, as people mentioned, for tougher battles. F1/2 cavalry have 60% chance to win any battle, which isn't that bad when going against tough units. It's situational, but when you need it, it's great. Plus, you need it on some cavalry if you're up against high first strike units (since cavalry don't have the immunity).

 

[obsolete]

The Drill and Flanking line of promotions seem (to me) to be objectively inferior to the Combat, City Raider, City Garrison and counter-unit promotions. I pick up one point of flanking on some naval units if I intend to pursue the navigation promotion, but otherwise, nada. Only time I've used Drill since my newb years was on one infantry unit with Warlord Leadership and the Devil's own luck that managed to get the full Combat line and Pinch.

Do you use Drill or Flanking? Why? Convince me they don't suck, or that they have some special strategic use I'm overlooking. I'll be the first to admit I don't have much of a head for numbers. Are first strikes worth more than they appear at first glance? Does a few levels of flanking dramatically increase a unit's long term survivability?

You are right about Flank II sucking. Actually, it's god-terrible, and you'll never see deity players using this (at least not winning ones). Flank I does have a small feature, as you already figured out, it gets to that Nav. However, I also use Flank I in order to get my Sentry, since the human player can run circles around the AI with fewer units if his intel is decent.

The only thing I can sum up is, Flank II is for weak players. It's for those who are TRYING NOT TO LOSE, I prefer to try TO WIN.

Drill is a special niche... If you anticipate lots of war, and are highly outnumbered, you'd be smart to take something like Sitting Bull's bowmen and go up the drill line. Drill I & II isn't that big a deal, but getting to that Drill IV is a nice payoff.

 

[obsolete]

"It (Drill) really has nothing in common to the other promotions, but is a fancy term for Armour"- obsolete

not sure how valid this statement is- however use Drill for archers and they seem like better attack units

if it is more like an "Armor" promotion then drill to formation (or even cover) might be more optimal then combat to shock. the evidence is not clear

For the reccord, Drill does not modify any attack values at all. The reason the combat odds (seem to) increase with Drill is because your armour lets you last longer, which means more chance to get extra HITS IN when things go bad.

= Higher winning rate over all.

 

[Iranon]

Both are useful.

Drill is a great defensive promotion; if you have favourable odds anyway it can give you better odds than Combat. Moreover, it greatly increases your chance of winning without taking a scratch - extremely useful when facing a horde of obsolete units.

There is a fairly major problem with it though: The code that picks the best defender greatly overrates first strikes so you Drill units will usually defend first even if there are better candidates. This is especially annoying since, against siege, Drill units would be great as a *second* line of defense because they take less collateral damage.

I still like the Drill line best except on my initial can openers.

***

Flanking is usually my promotion line of choice if the mounted unit in question lacks native first strike immunity. Otherwise it depends... it's useful for the first line of attack, but I rarely use mounted units unsupported.

I don't like it much for my navy.

 

[Negator_UK]

Flanking on superior horsey's is just awesome. You can attack longbows with Currassiers and not even need spies to take down defences,and you occassionally win the fight too ! You can even do it with gunships if, for some reason, your opponent hasn't researched rocketry yet.

Drill is only marginally useful at lower levels, mostly for minimising casualties attacking siege-softended defenders - but this advantage is minimised by the fact your seige needs time to heal anyway. Agree that Drill in defence sucks, too many attackers have (or can get) first strike immunity.

 

[Badtz Maru]

I like archers with a lot of Drill promotions, they are more versatile. I used to put City Defender on all my archer units, but I ended up with a lot of archers that never used their special ability when they were in cities that didn't get attacked. Drill archers are better for offensive stacks. When you have Protective and a lot of experience adding buildings/civics/instructors, you can make Drill IV units that can even be useful as city attackers when you have higher level ones (I especially like it once I get into the gunpowder units).

I've been working on my horse game lately, I tend to neglect mounted units and I'm trying to use them more, but I still don't have enough of them for the Flanking benefits to really show themselves.

 

[JTMacc99]

I use Flanking II on most of my mounted units. Flank I/Navigation on my transports. The whole 50 withdrawal rate is pretty damn useful.

I wouldn't touch drill with a ten foot pole unless I was a protective leader. At that point, I am more than happy to churn out Drill III or Drill IV gunpowder units. Drill IV rifles are pretty damn good units.

 

[Bei1052]

Flanking submarines are the best. Iirc, flanking II subs have something like an 80% withdrawal chance.

 

[troytheface]

In using Drill as an Armour promotion- an idea obsolete formulated-and utilizing Flanking a Protective Leader can field a potent non metal army.

Stonewall Jackson -Protective Organized- Emperor-Fractal-Random all else-Blue Marble aqua
Confederacy by strategyonly
no Unique Unit
Cotton Exchange Unique Building

 

[troytheface]

Settler builds in place, Barracks first build- Hunting to Archery-
2nd City build in Echelon (diagnal) formation -more on that later
Random event-Bowery- Combat added to-Garrison, Drill2-aim to add Formation

Stack of Drill promoted hyper modern armoured confederate archers and a few Chariots (Flanking) attack and raze the city. The remenant of the army holds on a hill.

 

[troytheface]

The city build in a diagnal means that Ragnar can only attack Montgomery- the city positioning makes defense of the other cities uneccessay as they are to far away for a counter attack

even War Elephants struggle against a spear and the hyper armoured confederate archers (Drill/Formation)

they hold long enough for spear and a Fort to be built-holding out against a stack of elephants

the evidence is clear- Drill and Flanking Chariots are the superior

 

[Izmir Stinger]

Well, at 64 votes, we have the following results:

------------Drill-------Flanking-----------

Great______21_________36____________

OK________35_________20____________

Sucks______8__________8_____________

(does this forum have a table function like phpBB, so I don't have to cobble it together like this)

Based on these results and info provided I will give flanking another chance on mounted units other than Chariots and Knights, if I can get Flanking 2.

Still not convinced about Drill. I'm not getting a coherent message concerning how or why I should use it. I don't like that I have to get it to level 3 or higher before it gets effective (CR 3 is also really useful too, you know) and am still not sure how to use it. Some adherents swear by it for defense, some offense. I'd be more confident if the Sucks took more votes, but I am going to stick with CR/CG and combat promos, thanks.

@ Troy the Face, that confederate UB is obscenely overpowered. A coastal commerce booster? Wasn't the Confederacy subject to an economically crippling naval blockade for most of its short existence as a political entity? It doesn't even require a harbor present like a normal customs house. Don't tell me you can build that in every city! And those confederate archers look ridiculous. Its like redneck day at the Society for Creative Anachronism.

Also, your case for flanking a drill isn't very convincing.

 

[Killroyan]

Flanking is something I really like to bring to a fight. Taking out the enemy siege engines by flanking is just plain fun. If you are fighting the big warmongers with big armies like monty or shaka flanking is just something that will help you a lot. I just wish flanking would damage all siege engines, as in gunships should also hit catapults and not just artillery etc...

Drill is somewhat usefull. Machineguns always get these promotions with me. And as a protective leader I often upgrade some of them along that line as stack protectors.

 

[Izmir Stinger]

I just wish flanking would damage all siege engines, as in gunships should also hit catapults and not just artillery etc...

If you have advanced flight, why the hell are you worried about catapaults? How are you even encountering them? WB shenanigans? Most obsolete unit I've ever seen that late was a Knight. I'll give you two guesses what leader it belonged to...

Drill is somewhat usefull. Machineguns always get these promotions with me.

Ah, see, I hardly ever build machine guns because I am not a big fan of not being able to attack, but I could see putting drill on them makes sense. All they can do is wear down an attacking SOD, so something that increases damage to the opponent in the event of death makes sense.

Oh course, my preferred method for heavily damaging SODs is suicide artillery on them until even their strongest units are easily defeated by my conventional troops.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ah, see, I hardly ever build machine guns because I am not a big fan of not being able to attack, but I could see putting drill on them makes sense. All they can do is wear down an attacking SOD, so something that increases damage to the opponent in the event of death makes sense.

Isn't drill the only promo machine guns produced directly can take ?!

You can upgrade CG grenadiers or something but I seldom find that worth my while. I almost never actually build MG's, though do make some use of drill.

 

[Izmir Stinger]

Isn't drill the only promo machine guns produced directly can take ?!

You can upgrade CG grenadiers or something but I seldom find that worth my while. I almost never actually build MG's, though do make some use of drill.

Is it? I thought they could take combat... well, they are technically an artillery unit. I don't know, I decided they suck a long time ago and haven't built one since.

And saying that drill is useful on a unit that can't possibly take anything else isn't a really strong case, Killroyan. If your MGs could take CG, would you still put drill on them?

 

[Windsor]

Flanking is something I really like to bring to a fight. Taking out the enemy siege engines by flanking is just plain fun. If you are fighting the big warmongers with big armies like monty or shaka flanking is just something that will help you a lot. I just wish flanking would damage all siege engines, as in gunships should also hit catapults and not just artillery etc...

You are confusing the promotions flanking I (+10% withdrawal rate) and flanking II (+20% withdrawal rate and immunity from first strikes) with some units' (horse archers, knights, cuirassiers, cavalry and gunship) ability to flank attack catapults, trebuchets, cannons, artillery and mobile artillery.

Firaxis should never have chosen the same name for the promotion and the inherited ability to flank attack.

 

[Windsor]

**************

 

[Iranon]

The two are somewhat linked. The flanking promotion ensures that the flanking mechanic will do its dirty work, even against a big and varied stack that gives you no hope of individually favourable fights.

 

[troytheface]

"Also, your case for flanking a drill isn't very convincing"

lol- yes an illustration showing Drill line promotions used on the offense and defense is apparently worse then...."Based on these results"

looking at a poll? (lol)

I suggest Charlemange or Saladin as two optimal Protective leaders for this method in leiu of the Confederacy- there is also a Trojan Civ that is pro/imp with Hector as a leader.

The evidence is clear- Drill promoted Archers of Tommorrow.