Drill not improved?

carn

Warlord
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
158
Hello,
with this first post here let me say that FfH is brilliant.

A lot of promotions are far better than in vanilla, it even says so in some mod description. E.g. combat fives +20%, woodsmen gives bonus on attack, city raider is stronger.

But Drill, which is in its generic usefulness(all terrains, offense and defense, always helps), a competition for combat promotion is not improved. But i remeber from some combat mechanic threads, that in vanilla combat is already under most circumstances stronger than 1 free strike, as 1 free strike is only roughly equivalent to + 7%, though multiplicative.

Therefore 1 first strike is only better than +10%, if defending and already having a very high negative or positive bonus from other sources.
E.g. on top of 200% defense from city, mountain, city defender or something else, combat would give in vanille just 210%, while first strike would give the equivalent of 214% bonus.

Take in, that drill 1 actually gives only 1 first strike chance, which is only woughly equal to a 3.5% bonus, and that "immune to first strikes" counter drill, drill is only better than combat in vanilla civ under certain circumstances. (Therefore they probably gave it further advantages in warlords.)


But in FfH with combat giving 20% it looks totally stupid to ever choose drill before having all combat promotions.

Is that intended?

After all most other promotions are nerfed so they do not get too useless compared to generic +20% from combat.
 
ya, would be nice to have them made significantly better, theres been a few discussions about it previously.

withdrawl rates could use a boost too... generally id like to see more new promotions available that are viable alternatives to combat.

Withdrawal was improved.
One can get 50% in FfH, unlike 30% in vanilla. Though one needs 1 more promotion, this is still far better als the last percentage points make the greatest difference(think about the difference betwenn withdrawal 99% and 100%).

In vanille civ best land based withdrawal chance was cavalry with 2 promotions and 60%. In FfH as far as i know there are units with 35% standard chance, that could make 85%, which is 63% lesser chance of dying.
 
Well, here's my fix. Only a few minutes in XML Marker, but it should bring Flanking and Drill more up to par. It also makes Magic Immune a little more useful against mages. :groucho:

  • Drill 1 now gives a guaranteed First Strike
  • Drill 2 gives 1 FS and 1 FSC
  • Drill 3 gives 1 FS and 2 FSC
  • Drill 4 gives 2 FS and 2 FSC
  • All Drill Promotions give +5% Combat :strength: and +10% City Defense :strength:. These are still a lot less than what the Combat and City Garrison promotions give you, so it should be balanced.
  • All Flanking Promotions now give +10% combat :strength:.
  • Magic Immune gives a +60% Bonus against Arcane, Fire, and Water units (combined with Magic Resistance, that's 100%)
 
I tend to agree with Mr Underhill's changes... and am considering implementing them myself.
 
Well, here's my fix. Only a few minutes in XML Marker, but it should bring Flanking and Drill more up to par. It also makes Magic Immune a little more useful against mages. :groucho:

  • Drill 1 now gives a guaranteed First Strike
  • Drill 2 gives 1 FS and 1 FSC
  • Drill 3 gives 1 FS and 2 FSC
  • Drill 4 gives 2 FS and 2 FSC
  • All Drill Promotions give +5% Combat :strength: and +10% City Defense :strength:. These are still a lot less than what the Combat and City Garrison promotions give you, so it should be balanced.


  • Then equivalents are(10% city defense is worth as much as 7% combat, as comabat 1 gives 20% and city defense 1 gives 30%, 1 first strike is 7.5%, "=" shoulb be equivalent):
    Drill 1 = +19.5% combat, against "first strike immune" 12%,
    Drill 2 = +23% , against "fsi" +12%
    Drill 3 = +26.5% , against "fsi" + 12%
    Drill 4 = +33.5% , against "fsi" + 12%

    All drills = 102.5%, against fsi + 48%

    Compared to + 80% from combat sounds like an alternative, would be good for units sometimes used as city defenders.
    [*]All Flanking Promotions now give +10% combat :strength:.
    [*]Magic Immune gives a +60% Bonus against Arcane, Fire, and Water units (combined with Magic Resistance, that's 100%)

My concern about drill was, that it is never useful compared to combat.(keeping storng units alive is better served by combat for healing in enemy territory.)

Flanking on the other hand can be useful. A hippus camel archer has 55% base retreat. With that unit getting another 50% retreat, so a gurantee to survive on the offense, can be a lot better in several situations than a + 60% combat.
Magic immune is definitely better than combat, if playing a summoning loving human.
 
First strike chance depends on combat odds, but there was a long discussion before about drill, so I suggest reading it first will help prevent repeating the same proposals.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=184089

Good advice!!

The possible mistake is of course, that as FfH tends to have high unit levels, there can be often the option to have combat and drill maxed.
If drill is strengthened too far, this will unbalance units, which can get it towards those which cannot(especially heroes).

So the task would be strengthen it so far, that it gets as often reasonable to choose drill4 over combat 4 as it is reasonable, to choose flanking 3 over combat 3 or woodsmen/guerilla 2 over combat 2.

With this in mind, the proposed bonuses above look to large, it would require adjusting many other promotions as well, so that high level units, which can get drill are not far superior over those who cannot.
Maybe this is already enough:
Drill 1 now gives a guaranteed First Strike
Drill 2 gives 1 FS and 1 FSC
Drill 3 gives 1 FS and 2 FSC
Drill 4 gives 2 FS and 2 FSC

This would give drill 4 5- 10 First Strikes compared to 3-7 normally.

But this might be unbalancing on powerful units, so i think, that giving drill a 5% combat bonus per level is enough.
 
Ah, good point. If it makes archers more valuable while keeping the other units, the same, I don't see any problem with that. Similar logic could be applied to flanking...
 
Indeed. A more powerful flanking makes mounted units more attractive... as well as the natural counter against the new-and-improved Drill Archers.
 
Back
Top Bottom