Chandrasekhar
Determined
Not when it's paired with a low base strength and a ridiculous beaker cost.
Drill not improved?
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Maniac
Apolyton Sage
Is it possible to determine a precise combat victory %chance where getting one extra first strike becomes better than getting +10% or +20% combat strength?
Unser Giftzwerg
UgLe Game Promoter
Doubtful. It depends on the combat calculations of course. But even for simple systems it seems you have 2 varables (minimum) and 1 equation. I don't know how Civ calculates combat, but I am pretty sure it is not a simply one-step calculation. So you are probably trying to venture into the realm of unsolvable non-linear relationships.
But since I type so slowly it occured to me the issue mind lend itself well to an RMS analysis. That wouldn't give you a precise simple answer, but it'd give you insight into how strongly each component affects the outcome:
Or perhaps someone adept in folding math can see a solution. I never scored well on those spacial relationsships tests in high school.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
There were changes made to Drill in warlords (sorry if this was brought up already): lessens collateral damage, and can open up the same promotions as combat. So an archer with drill one could get shock, even if he didn't have combat 1.
These could be useful to port over.
These could be useful to port over.
loki1232
Loki
I would prefer that the first strike mechanic was made more open, knid of liek in civ III.
Maybe it increases your ZoC?
Maybe it increases your ZoC?
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
I'm not going to pretend I'm following.
But IIUC first strike gets better the better your combat odds already are. So wouldn't it be possible to make one formula for a given combat odds x +20% => resulting in another combat odds. And then make another list of the same given combat odds x + one first strike, and then simply look when first strike gets better than +20%?
Unser Giftzwerg
UgLe Game Promoter
I'm not going to pretend I'm following.
I'm sorry, I thought you were hoping to reduce your question to a simple equasion that would give you an answer under all conditions. You could certainly take a crack at estimating the effects this way. But I get the impression you are imagining a comparison between a unit with no first strikes, no first strikes and 120% strength, and 100% strength and one first strike. That's only one of many possible conditions. There's the comparison between going from 120% to 140% strength, from two to three 1st strikes, and so forth.
And then to be certain you understand a universal rule you have to repeat the whole magilla for different base strength units. While it is likely you will find similar behavior in a 10vs7 battle as a 20vs14 as a 30vs21 battle, you cannot assume that to be true without testing.
Then you'd probably want to verify your work against some special units, such as immunte to 1st strie units, or between units that each have 1st strike capability.
Still, if you are willing to put in the time you could run a brute-force test such as you described, you may very well end up with a relatively simple breakpoint estimation. Or the only insight might be: It All Depends On A Bunch Of Stuff.
it is, but the three promotions leading up to it have little boni-so it would take at least 5 promotions to make a somewhat effective mounted unit
and mounted techs are an investment with little other return in them
I'm going to have to say that I agree with Unser. Although I'm fairly certain you could make each promotion equal in any possible combat situation, I would have to say that the effort and time required to undertake such a job would be immense. And, I highly doubt that the way Civ 4 is programmed (and even the way that mathematics works), it will be a nice simple equation to use (i.e. There is virtually no chance that you could make 1 first strike always be equivalent to +20% combat multiplier).
Math simply isn't that straightforward. So, like I said, I'm fairly certain it can be done, but the required time, effort, and resultant required processing power would be so large that it wouldn't be worth trying to do. Plus, I like that each promotion isn't EXACTLY as powerful. It adds some spice to the game. Otherwise, you get people who "min-max" the game to death.
Math simply isn't that straightforward. So, like I said, I'm fairly certain it can be done, but the required time, effort, and resultant required processing power would be so large that it wouldn't be worth trying to do. Plus, I like that each promotion isn't EXACTLY as powerful. It adds some spice to the game. Otherwise, you get people who "min-max" the game to death.
Unser Giftzwerg
UgLe Game Promoter
Thanks...this is basically what I was trying to say. We pod people have trouble communicating with real humans at times.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
Good point. Though I guess that still leaves a limited and manageable number of scenarios.
Aren't base strengths irrelevant if you're working with the effect of first strikes and combat promotions on victory chances? Looks to me the only relevant factor that needs to be counted in would be the promotions and first strikes the unit in question for which we would want to determine the effects of the promotions, already has. Promotions of the enemy combatants simply decrease the victory odds, and first strikes of the opponent simply would need to be deducted from your own unit's first strikes to determine under what scenario you're working to check under what odds first strikes becomes better than a Combat promotion.
Unser Giftzwerg
UgLe Game Promoter
If I had to guess I would say you are probably correct. But there is no way for me to know.
Not without knowing the exact combat colculations, at teh very least.But if there is no utterly no effect, a few simple trials would probably reveal that.
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