D'tesh Events (Possible bug)

steps into D'tesh territory

Not really, not any more than Balseraphs, Malakim and Shearim steps on each others territory simply by virtue of being human.

(Ghosthouse? Embalmer?). Some of it (creeper stuff especially) I will look at in detail, and I'll likely add a few new UB's for them, even if not the ones you made.

Most of them were made just to remove the :health: and :food: buildings, but the Embalmer is very much appropriate.

Consider the lesson learned from Death Becomes Her: You're dead, living the good life and want to look your best. Natural wear and tear on the body requires maintenance, which is no longer automatic now that you're dead. Where do you go to get a little touch-up when your left index finger keeps falling off? The embalmers of course! Reattach loose appendages, gossip with the other patrons and maybe a new coat of flesh coloured paint. You'll look like you just died last week.

The same reasoning applies to the Mortuary, the thing to remember is that Scions Mortuaries and Embalmers are very different places compared to Ljosalfar, Elohim, Calabim or even D'Tesh.

Since I'm on a rant, I'll point out that the Water Sculpture is supposed to be the Haunted Lands effect applied to the actual river. Water running uphill, into buildings and cleaning them, turning to blood at appropriate times, chasing kids (in a friendly fashion) and even to some extent behaving as a useful member of society; attending meetings and creating art for instance. Weird water stuff essentially. I couldn't think of word to convey that idea in a way that would fit in the building menu.
 
Not really, not any more than Balseraphs, Malakim and Shearim steps on each others territory simply by virtue of being human.

That is rather different here. D'tesh already have a Morgue building, as well as Crypt/Mausoleum/Catacombs improvements.

A Mortuary building is similar in name/function to those already granted to the D'tesh, and doesn't have too much to do with the "Undead Roman" theme of the Scions.

Would be like if we had both a Carnival civ and a Gypsy civ... Which gets the wagons? Obviously the second, even if it is perfectly feasible for the first to get them as well.

Most of them were made just to remove the :health: and :food: buildings, but the Embalmer is very much appropriate.

Consider the lesson learned from Death Becomes Her: You're dead, living the good life and want to look your best. Natural wear and tear on the body requires maintenance, which is no longer automatic now that you're dead. Where do you go to get a little touch-up when your left index finger keeps falling off? The embalmers of course! Reattach loose appendages, gossip with the other patrons and maybe a new coat of flesh coloured paint. You'll look like you just died last week.

The same reasoning applies to the Mortuary, the thing to remember is that Scions Mortuaries and Embalmers are very different places compared to Ljosalfar, Elohim, Calabim or even D'Tesh.

Since I'm on a rant, I'll point out that the Water Sculpture is supposed to be the Haunted Lands effect applied to the actual river. Water running uphill, into buildings and cleaning them, turning to blood at appropriate times, chasing kids (in a friendly fashion) and even to some extent behaving as a useful member of society; attending meetings and creating art for instance. Weird water stuff essentially. I couldn't think of word to convey that idea in a way that would fit in the building menu.

It's function yes. I would not give it that name, however. In fact, it's role is already in game. Called the Flesh Studio. :p

As for them being different, indeed they are. But the names are at issue, here. As I described above.

The water building sounds interesting...


For the most part though, it is the naming that I have issues with. Some of the effects seem odd, or unnecessary (honestly, I've got no issue with some of the buildings. Granary, for example... Even the Scions eat, even if it's just for the pleasure of doing so). Any building which is just a name change won't happen. Some of the less appropriate buildings (Otherworldly Beacon) won't happen either. :p

The only time I add identical items is when it is required for something else to work (happens with promotions alot, or occasionally units like the Malakim Champion... Needed it to upgrade to the Dervish) or when it is required for art (D'tesh improvements, though it looks like they'll all be different by the time it's released; Mausoleums and Catacombs started out as just art replacements that have now gained unique effects).
 
Would be like if we had both a Carnival civ and a Gypsy civ... Which gets the wagons? Obviously the second, even if it is perfectly feasible for the first to get them as well.

Obviously both. If the wagons are the only thing that differentiates them then merge them.

But I don't subscribe to the RifE philosophy of adding new mechanics for everything. I'll gladly reuse working mechanics in new ways.

There are two elven civs that both build in forests. There are two lizard civs that both build in jungle. There are (at least) two arcane civs that both love mages. There are several rushing civs that thrive on early warfare. Several civs have an affinity for Snow. For that matter, several civs have an affinity for grassland, let's cut all but one of those!

It's function yes. I would not give it that name, however. In fact, it's role is already in game. Called the Flesh Studio. :p

The Flesh Studio is a late game wonder that requires a fairly weak mana and a weak mana tech. It does not fulfil the same role. That like saying a plastic surgery clinic in Greece makes the local hairdresser obsolete.

Some of the effects seem odd, or unnecessary (honestly, I've got no issue with some of the buildings. Granary, for example... Even the Scions eat, even if it's just for the pleasure of doing so). Any building which is just a name change won't happen.

If they eat for pleasure, why would they want to keep a lot of mouldy grain around? Granaries exist to prevent starvation, not because bread is tasty.

On the whole I agree with you, the names are weird and the effects strange. The only thing I can say is that at least in my opinion, they are better than having buildings that suggest Scions starve, thirst, get sick or die of old age.

The Otherworldly Beacon is no big loss (although it will remain part of the module as long as the Lighthouse gives :food:), but the Ghost Crew promotion could be moved to be the standard crew for D'Tesh.

The only time I add identical items is when it is required ...for art

For me, names are far more important than art.
 
Obviously both. If the wagons are the only thing that differentiates them then merge them.

But I don't subscribe to the RifE philosophy of adding new mechanics for everything. I'll gladly reuse working mechanics in new ways.

There are two elven civs that both build in forests. There are two lizard civs that both build in jungle. There are (at least) two arcane civs that both love mages. There are several rushing civs that thrive on early warfare. Several civs have an affinity for Snow. For that matter, several civs have an affinity for grassland, let's cut all but one of those!

Yes, there are obviously similarities between civs. Scions and D'tesh are both undead, both fallow, both have good mages and good recon units.

I have absolutely NO desire to make them any more similar as a result, which is why I'm being extremely careful here.

And I don't add new mechanics for everything. If it's something where the idea requires it, I do it. Otherwise, I work with what we have. So far, all the changes for the D'tesh were already in the code, even the city cap. Just hadn't been used.

The Flesh Studio is a late game wonder that requires a fairly weak mana and a weak mana tech. It does not fulfil the same role. That like saying a plastic surgery clinic in Greece makes the local hairdresser obsolete.

I acknowledge that. Just pointing out that there is already a building with that flavor, and a far better (imo) name. No reason we cannot take that name, and then give the wonder a more specific name.

If they eat for pleasure, why would they want to keep a lot of mouldy grain around? Granaries exist to prevent starvation, not because bread is tasty.

On the whole I agree with you, the names are weird and the effects strange. The only thing I can say is that at least in my opinion, they are better than having buildings that suggest Scions starve, thirst, get sick or die of old age.

The Otherworldly Beacon is no big loss (although it will remain part of the module as long as the Lighthouse gives :food:), but the Ghost Crew promotion could be moved to be the standard crew for D'Tesh.

I don't really believe that the standard buildings are too odd. The Scions have a significant living population up until they build the necropolis, after all.

Mostly because up until that tech, they are unable to actively spread the gift on a large scale. All part of the lore. ;)

For me, names are far more important than art.

I agree with you. But for the D'tesh, I've been able to develop a fairly consistent 'look' for their empire... That's important too. ;)
 
Just wondering, is the Legion going to get any method of spreading haunted lands (and I don't mean creepers)? I know the haunted lands indicate different things in different contexts, but a phenomena that's commercially useful and harmful to everyone but the undead seems like something D'Tesh might look into.
 
Active spread, though, will not happen.

Nice touch!

That let's me value the Scions actively spreading haunted lands, as on a philosiphical quest...
Like the elves spreading the forests, not only bacause it makes them powerful, but also because that's how they want the world to be!

D'Tesh shouldn't be bothered by such a trivial task, they don't want a place where life and death mingle. Total dominion is their goal, if I'm correct, and the broken wasteland they leave behind a (more or less wanted...) side effect of their methods.

...And that, incidentally, leaves a niche open for a D'Tesh minor leader that actually spreads Haunted lands (actively, maybe recieves a creeper each x turns). Sort of a schismatic (ahem...sp?) one, could be the lesser evil of the D'Teshi bunch.
But this is obviously modmodders ground, because clearly Valk won't introduce such a leader :p

PS: Really looking forward to new D'tesh. Untill now I avoided playing with them, even if I already love the flavour, because I want to approach the more polished version that's in store :D
 
Nice touch!

That let's me value the Scions actively spreading haunted lands, as on a philosiphical quest...
Like the elves spreading the forests, not only bacause it makes them powerful, but also because that's how they want the world to be!

D'Tesh shouldn't be bothered by such a trivial task, they don't want a place where life and death mingle. Total dominion is their goal, if I'm correct, and the broken wasteland they leave behind a (more or less wanted...) side effect of their methods.

...And that, incidentally, leaves a niche open for a D'Tesh minor leader that actually spreads Haunted lands (actively, maybe recieves a creeper each x turns). Sort of a schismatic (ahem...sp?) one, could be the lesser evil of the D'Teshi bunch.
But this is obviously modmodders ground, because clearly Valk won't introduce such a leader :p

PS: Really looking forward to new D'tesh. Untill now I avoided playing with them, even if I already love the flavour, because I want to approach the more polished version that's in store :D

I had a test game going the night before last, and REALLY enjoyed it... The new features work perfectly.

I haven't implemented the Crypt mechanic, and honestly, I'm not going to write new code for it. Not necessary IMO, as you can survive perfectly fine without it... Just going to use the same random chance method that barb lairs use. Will also have it just ONE slave per crypt, and never spawn another. Sure, you could go around constantly rebuilding the crypts... but then your workers aren't doing anything else.

I also haven't implemented the defender unit yet; That will definitely be in, though. Decided to go with an Archer.

And I still have to tweak the various unitlines. :P So I suppose my test game was just with the new improvements and the popcaps. :lol:

And yes, I love the D'tesh. One of my favorite civs. ;)

Edit: As for that leader idea... Yeah, modmod territory. :p
 
Yeah I know about the auto-terraforming thing. I torture myself endlessly trying not to improve areas where forests could spread until I need to. Actually, if I could ask a clarification, I was under the impression that haunted lands spread the same way forests do, is that right? Or once the tile is desert (I don't think scrubs spread at all, or at least I haven't seen it), should I improve away?

Will there (please!) be some indication of which crypts have used up their spawn? That's information that should be available (since you can see what tile the slave spawns on) but could easily be forgotten as D'Tesh tiles tend to all look alike. Maybe an otherwise identical improvement called a "vacant crypt" or somesuch.
 
Yeah I know about the auto-terraforming thing. I torture myself endlessly trying not to improve areas where forests could spread until I need to. Actually, if I could ask a clarification, I was under the impression that haunted lands spread the same way forests do, is that right? Or once the tile is desert (I don't think scrubs spread at all, or at least I haven't seen it), should I improve away?

Will there (please!) be some indication of which crypts have used up their spawn? That's information that should be available (since you can see what tile the slave spawns on) but could easily be forgotten as D'Tesh tiles tend to all look alike. Maybe an otherwise identical improvement called a "vacant crypt" or somesuch.

Haunted Lands CAN grow on their own... It's just rare. Like with a forest.

There should be an indication, yes. But at the same time, that indication would make it possible to see what you should replace in order to take advantage of the spawns....
 
Sorry, I wasn't specific enough. I meant whether they spread to adjacent tiles (if rarely) with less of a chance with a road built, and none if an improvement is present. The question is somewhat muddled by one of the Scion concept entries that talks about HL springing from nonexistence spontaneously-it's not clear if they can just appear anywhere, or just if the scions are in the game, or just within scion territory.

As for the vacancy indicator, maybe a tumbleweed rolling past the crypt?

Also, I'm sure you know this, but for sake of discussion, that spawn rate is going to have to be pretty small, since at a rate similar to barb spawns, you'd quickly have too many slaves to use. It seems to me that if you make it small enough, it wouldn't matter whether any few crypts could produce, so you could save time by not figuring out an indicator and I could save time not pillaging and rebuilding crypts.
 
I'm not sure. I know that they grow, and that they don't interfere with building improvements; I'm just not sure on how the code is set up. If it's done the way I'd do it, any improvement which does not remove the feature will not prevent the growth. But it may be done the easy way, in which case any improvement prevents growth. Not sure.

An indicator would be very easy to add (line of c++ in the text file, so it displays when you mouse over the improvement); The question is more, should it be added? It allows you to game the system, rebuilding crypts whenever a slave is spawned. I'd prefer to avoid that. And yes, the chance would be low... Just a little boost, really. Will only help in the early game.
 
An indicator would be very easy to add (line of c++ in the text file, so it displays when you mouse over the improvement); The question is more, should it be added? It allows you to game the system, rebuilding crypts whenever a slave is spawned. I'd prefer to avoid that. And yes, the chance would be low... Just a little boost, really. Will only help in the early game.

The game should track and make available any information that has an effect and is visible in game. In other words, you shouldn't have to make notes manually.

You know, you could make the Crypt an upgrading improvement that turns into an identical improvement which in turn spawns the one slave. You'd get a lot for free; the need to work the improvement, the indication that it is empty, the known number of turns until it spawns...

I'd be tempted to nerf the developing crypt slightly, maybe remove the :hammers: bonus from techs, just so that there is a trade-off between rebuilding it and leaving it.
 
The game should track and make available any information that has an effect and is visible in game. In other words, you shouldn't have to make notes manually.

You know, you could make the Crypt an upgrading improvement that turns into an identical improvement which in turn spawns the one slave. You'd get a lot for free; the need to work the improvement, the indication that it is empty, the known number of turns until it spawns...

I'd be tempted to nerf the developing crypt slightly, maybe remove the :hammers: bonus from techs, just so that there is a trade-off between rebuilding it and leaving it.

That's actually what would be added. :p Without being told to display it to the player (made visible), it will not display. All I'd do is have it say how many units the improvement has spawned, and what the limit is. I'm just not sure if I'll add it or not.

Your crypt idea would work perfectly, actually. Does what I'd like, without a new mechanic... Just need a bit of python so the new crypt spawns the unit when built.

Would do the same thing with the Catacombs (mine replacement) as well, most likely.
 
Second update, before I go to sleep; In between other things, I finished the Recon changes for the D'tesh. Again, already in the second post, under Update 2


  • Recon
    • Will no longer be permanently invisible. There will be a period after attacking where they are visible; Under Thanatos, this will be 1 turn. Otherwise, 3.
    • Handled via a total of 3 new promotions; Very lightweight system.
 
Valkrionn, I get why you don't want to make it too easy to game the system-too many slaves and the Legion quickly becomes OP. But if I'm inclined to game it, I'm going to. When a slave is produced, I leave it in place and move one of my worthless warriors over to blow up the improvement (probably one turn). I then tell the slave to build a crypt (which keeps the tile marked) and send the first available worker over to help him finish it. System gamed.

To thwart that plan, you'd have to prevent me from pillaging the improvement (probably doable, but what if I later discover a resource on a crypt-ed tile) or limit the lifespan of the slave (could be done with a modified version of the Dying Creeper promo or treat spawned slaves as summons).

Sorry, that looks combative as I reread it, but I'm not sure how to clean it up and still make the point. I appeal to your legendary patience. I'm just not sure how to make your proposed system game-proof.

If it were me, I might have all crypts initially empty, but with a random chance to "discover" a corpse resource (with probability improved by death mana the same way Mechanos use refined mana, but decreased/divided by the number of previously spawned slaves or something) and then let crypt+corpse spawn a slave (wiping out the resource) randomly, or after some set period.
 
Yes, it's still quite possible to game it. Whether I use the standard system, or Odalrick's improvement upgrade idea (which I'd have as an improvement CYCLE; more below), you'll be able to game it. The question was about making it easy to game it with no consequences, or require you to give up a bit of time/patience and do it IMMEDIATELY.

The system you describe won't work, as it requires completely new code; I'm looking to use only existing code, here.

Now, for the way I'm thinking of doing it....


  1. Crypts and Catacombs start off with reduced yields.
  2. In some number of turns (50?) they upgrade to a new variant, standard yields. This upgrade process spawns a slave.
  3. In some longer number of turns (100? 150?) they 'upgrade' back to the original version.
  4. Possibly some requirement of X distance between each other? That could hurt though, as these are the basic improvements... Maybe limit it to just Catacombs (mines), so it requires hills? Less spam.
It would be supremely easy to game (just replace the upgraded form of the crypt), but at a cost; You're losing out on yields.

Alternately, we boost the Arcane line and do it slightly differently... Just thought of this one.

  1. Crypts/Catacombs function normally. No upgrade, no reduced yields, nothing.
  2. D'teshi Arcane units stationed on one of these improvements may cast a spell (Animate Corpse?), which creates a slave, and has a high % chance (50+) of converting the improvement to a weakened version of itself which both has reduced yields, and is unpillageable.
    • Does NOT upgrade back to the original. This is a permanent downgrade; Hence the ability to get more than one slave, if you're lucky.
This one can be gamed too (save/reload), but so can battles if you want slaves that way. However, it has the benefit of being completely controlled... You decide when it happens, and if the payoff is worth the cost. I'm leaning heavily towards it atm.
 
Could just make it so that each tile can only make one slave, ever. Would require a variable on the plot though.
 
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