Dwarves and Gold

[vorshlumpf]

Did you miss the fact that the Khazad get +20% in every city?

- Niilo

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I dont like civ specific wonders as there is no challenge in achieving them. I also think the dwarves advantage of being tight packed should carry the disadvantage of having access to fewer resources. Dwarves, more than any race, should be greedly eyeing that iron or mithril vein and thinking about what they can do to claim it.

Don't Civ specific heroes work on the same principle? In any case, I've always envisioned dwarves as being super greedy with what they have, but not necessarily being so envious of other peoples' posetions. If they have to war to get metallic resources (and they will have to war, because they probably won't have any duplicate strategic resources to trade), then it will sort of ruin the flavor to see the dwarves either big and strong (dwarves aren't supposed to build continental empires), or small and weak (dwarves are supposed to be able to cope with being cramped and compact).

That said, making the dwarves much, much more likely to find resources with mines sounds like a good idea. Whatever you do, don't make it dependent on being Runes! There's enough synergy there, already.

Anyway, I think that these Dwarf-built-metallic-wonders would be really expensive, I mean they should take a long time to build. We don't just want to be giving the dwarves a few free resources, we want them to have to work for it, to the point where it would be stupid for them to build it unless they didn't have the resource and needed it. Would it be possible to make it so that these wonders have "half production speed with copper" or whatever? It might help make sure that they don't just build it because they want a duplicate resource to trade (because dwarves wouldn't do that, flavor-wise).

Actually, if that's not good, how about these wonders just dramatically increase the chance of finding a particular resource? Or even one wonder that increases the chances of finding metallic resources in general? It seems like that might be a good compromise.

 

[Sureshot]

There's a wonder that gives you 3 irons. I think thats a Rune's associated wonder though.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Did you miss the fact that the Khazad get +20% in every city?

- Niilo

To whom and to what issue is this addressed?

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Don't Civ specific heroes work on the same principle? In any case, I've always envisioned dwarves as being super greedy with what they have, but not necessarily being so envious of other peoples' posetions. If they have to war to get metallic resources (and they will have to war, because they probably won't have any duplicate strategic resources to trade), then it will sort of ruin the flavor to see the dwarves either big and strong (dwarves aren't supposed to build continental empires), or small and weak (dwarves are supposed to be able to cope with being cramped and compact).

In a game predicated upon the goal of establishing continental empires, yes, even Dwarves are "supposed" to do this thing.

Fantasy literature generally tells a story the begins and ends in the span of a single lifetime. The timefrome of a fantasy story covers a period of time where a civilization might develop a few new technologies. A Civ game models a string of lifetimes spanning dozens of generations. In a Civ game, so many new developments occur that a nation-race will appear different than it did during the Epic story. In fantasy literature, Dwarves (or any other race) are described as being good at A, B, and C, but bad at X, Y, and Z. his is but a snapshot description of that race, at is existed at the time of the Epic Adventure.

In a game spanning the lifetime of nations, where the storyline can be "won" by any race, the various fantasy peoples must be allowed to evolve. Just because Dwarves (for example) traditionally shuned horsemanship skills in the Age of Easy Gold, that does not mean they will not develop those skills in the Age Of The Ending. If Killmorph can be saved from the Demonic Hordes conjured forth from the Forgotten Dimensions only by the charge of Heavy Cavalry, then Heavy Cavalry will the Dwarven Nation develop. FfH is still Civ .... when you play a nation you want to be able to see it develop - and win.

IMU(nderinformed)O, there's already been to much of the "but Dwarves can't do that" thought at work. The Dwarven trait gives double movement in hills. The Elven trait gives the equivalent movement in forest/jungle ... and it also gives a combat bonus. The Dwarven Heavy Infantry unit (Maceman variant) is STR 6. The same unit built by Elves is STR 7. The rugged, tough, high endurace, tenacious Dwarves cannot outfight frail Elven lightweights even in a toe-to-toe slugfest while wearing heavy, cumbersome armor.

It's time to shift gears a bit into describing some positive traits. Fortunately, the Design Team is way ahead of us. I'm looking forward to re-playing the Khazad, this time as Leafers, with the new Dwarven units expected in 2.015.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

We're on the same side here, Giftzwerg. I'm not talking about limiting the dwarves to small empires. I'm talking about making them more effective than others at using small empires, about making them at their best with small empires. I don't believe Civs should be overly limited; I believe that they should each have their niche. This is the biggest problem with the elves, in my opinion. While other Civs get penalized or limited, the elves are made stronger, unquestionably stronger by their features. The biggest step we can take toward balancing things out is not only by making the elves weaker - at least not significantly - no, we need to make everyone else stronger, too.

But we can't make everyone better at the same stuff. That would defeat the purpose. We have to make each Civ very, very good at a few things. We don't limit the Civ to these things; we must make them good enough at that strategy that they don't need to lean on other conventional programs. Sure, dwarves might be able to pick up new skills as they're needed, but they also have an area of expertise. So while dwarves may be charging in with their newly developed heavy cavalry, they'll still be fondly thinking of solid earth beneath their feed, and a stout battleaxe in their hands. And while they may build up a continental empire, they should not need to do so, and in fact should have to expend more resources to do so, as it will not be necessary for them to do this to fourish. For to deny this is to deny that which the dwarves have become over the years, and they will instead just be shorter people with the exact same abilities and limitations.

One final thing: this mod is still in development. If elves have bonuses and no penalties, then we can hope, and we can ensure, that they will, eventually. If dwarves face the opposite dilemma, then we can take the same courses of action there, too. We need people that stand up and say what they think is wrong about this mod, because that's how it gets better. But also keep in mind that you can't have it both ways. Dwarves will have their limits, and they will have their bonuses, and elves will have different bonuses and penalties themselves. We just have to decide what they are.

 

[Kael]

In a game predicated upon the goal of establishing continental empires, yes, even Dwarves are "supposed" to do this thing.

Fantasy literature generally tells a story the begins and ends in the span of a single lifetime. The timefrome of a fantasy story covers a period of time where a civilization might develop a few new technologies. A Civ game models a string of lifetimes spanning dozens of generations. In a Civ game, so many new developments occur that a nation-race will appear different than it did during the Epic story. In fantasy literature, Dwarves (or any other race) are described as being good at A, B, and C, but bad at X, Y, and Z. his is but a snapshot description of that race, at is existed at the time of the Epic Adventure.

In a game spanning the lifetime of nations, where the storyline can be "won" by any race, the various fantasy peoples must be allowed to evolve. Just because Dwarves (for example) traditionally shuned horsemanship skills in the Age of Easy Gold, that does not mean they will not develop those skills in the Age Of The Ending. If Killmorph can be saved from the Demonic Hordes conjured forth from the Forgotten Dimensions only by the charge of Heavy Cavalry, then Heavy Cavalry will the Dwarven Nation develop. FfH is still Civ .... when you play a nation you want to be able to see it develop - and win.

IMU(nderinformed)O, there's already been to much of the "but Dwarves can't do that" thought at work. The Dwarven trait gives double movement in hills. The Elven trait gives the equivalent movement in forest/jungle ... and it also gives a combat bonus. The Dwarven Heavy Infantry unit (Maceman variant) is STR 6. The same unit built by Elves is STR 7. The rugged, tough, high endurace, tenacious Dwarves cannot outfight frail Elven lightweights even in a toe-to-toe slugfest while wearing heavy, cumbersome armor.

It's time to shift gears a bit into describing some positive traits. Fortunately, the Design Team is way ahead of us. I'm looking forward to re-playing the Khazad, this time as Leafers, with the new Dwarven units expected in 2.015.

I agree with everything you said. Just as you said the strengths and weaknesses are supposed to incent a certain style of play that matches that civs flavor but not force the players to have to adopt it.

For example, there is an interestign Khazad/Fellowship strategy where they forgo their vaults in the early game and rely on the the felllowship forests bonus (they need forests to do this well) to mitigate their unhappiness for low wealth. They get through the early game with this strategy and the combination of the ancient forests defence with their own formidable city defenses. Then in the midgame when they can afford it they stockpile the gold and turn from their defensive/defensive structure to a production engine. From a roleplaying perspective I dont think anyone that would imagine a bunch of tree hugging dwarves that started out in the middle of a forest, but it is a viable game strategy.

Unfortunatly the one thing you said that isn't true is that I dont expect many new dwarven units to come in 0.15. The Dwarven Slinger is in as an archer replacement, and the Dwarven Worker to make the new dwarven mines. I plan on adding a Dwarven Cannon, even without new art because I think they need it. Outside of that we probably wont get much until more art is available (good news on this front though as Woodelf has been makign great progress with dwarf models).

Also I didnt realize that the Dwavren Hammerfist was only 6 strength, I raised it to 7 like the rest of the macemen units.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I agree with everything you said. Just as you said the strengths and weaknesses are supposed to incent a certain style of play that matches that civs flavor but not force the players to have to adopt it.

For example, there is an interestign Khazad/Fellowship strategy where they forgo their vaults in the early game and rely on the the felllowship forests bonus (they need forests to do this well) to mitigate their unhappiness for low wealth. They get through the early game with this strategy and the combination of the ancient forests defence with their own formidable city defenses. Then in the midgame when they can afford it they stockpile the gold and turn from their defensive/defensive structure to a production engine. From a roleplaying perspective I dont think anyone that would imagine a bunch of tree hugging dwarves that started out in the middle of a forest, but it is a viable game strategy.

Unfortunatly the one thing you said that isn't true is that I dont expect many new dwarven units to come in 0.15. The Dwarven Slinger is in as an archer replacement, and the Dwarven Worker to make the new dwarven mines. I plan on adding a Dwarven Cannon, even without new art because I think they need it. Outside of that we probably wont get much until more art is available (good news on this front though as Woodelf has been makign great progress with dwarf models).

Also I didnt realize that the Dwavren Hammerfist was only 6 strength, I raised it to 7 like the rest of the macemen units.

Yay! Getting the Hammerfists up to 7 generates the Giftzwerg grins. I gotta say, that 6 was irksome. I mean, if Dwarves can'teven be sluggers, what's left for the stout buggers to do?

Well, if the Dwarves don't get their upper tier units in 0.15, that's OK. They're coming, that's what matters. And the longer they take, the more chances I have to play other nations.

Yep, the tree-hugging dwarves strategy is the one I plan to try as soon as you release a version with the Dwarven forces fleshed out. I think it might be quite superior to the obvious Killmorph strategy. Having Dwarves with access to Nature II spells sounds pretty good. Clearly this is a strategy to peak in the later game, so the early game could be rough.

If the game allows a viable Dwarven tree-hugging nation what can you say but that the system is flexible and not a slave to role-playing sterotype.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

We're on the same side here, Giftzwerg. I'm not talking about limiting the dwarves to small empires. I'm talking about making them more effective than others at using small empires, about making them at their best with small empires. I don't believe Civs should be overly limited; I believe that they should each have their niche. This is the biggest problem with the elves, in my opinion. While other Civs get penalized or limited, the elves are made stronger, unquestionably stronger by their features. The biggest step we can take toward balancing things out is not only by making the elves weaker - at least not significantly - no, we need to make everyone else stronger, too.

But we can't make everyone better at the same stuff. That would defeat the purpose. We have to make each Civ very, very good at a few things. We don't limit the Civ to these things; we must make them good enough at that strategy that they don't need to lean on other conventional programs. Sure, dwarves might be able to pick up new skills as they're needed, but they also have an area of expertise. So while dwarves may be charging in with their newly developed heavy cavalry, they'll still be fondly thinking of solid earth beneath their feed, and a stout battleaxe in their hands. And while they may build up a continental empire, they should not need to do so, and in fact should have to expend more resources to do so, as it will not be necessary for them to do this to fourish. For to deny this is to deny that which the dwarves have become over the years, and they will instead just be shorter people with the exact same abilities and limitations.

One final thing: this mod is still in development. If elves have bonuses and no penalties, then we can hope, and we can ensure, that they will, eventually. If dwarves face the opposite dilemma, then we can take the same courses of action there, too. We need people that stand up and say what they think is wrong about this mod, because that's how it gets better. But also keep in mind that you can't have it both ways. Dwarves will have their limits, and they will have their bonuses, and elves will have different bonuses and penalties themselves. We just have to decide what they are.

Sorry if I misinterperted your earlier post. I think it's pretty clear that neither of us want every civ to be exactly alike. I even admitted upthread that I harbor a pet peeve towards certain fantasy game imbalances stemming back to the orignal D&D rules.

What I do not like is inconsistant logic. You raised a good point about the FfH Elves. Dwarves are traditionally thought of as having substantial kingdoms, yes? But smallish compared to the large Human empires. And they are somewhat reclusive. Their realms are the the rugged areas less traveled by Humans.

Well, does not the same general description also apply to Elves? Just substitute deep ancient forests for rugged highlands. In both cases you're looking at moderate-sized, reclusivesish, realms that 'punch above their weight' in one regard or another.

In FfH, the Dwarf player is encouraged towards this archtype by the admittedly clever (possibly elegant) Dwarven Vault mechanism. Expansion is slowed. Efficiency is encouraged.

The Pitch

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. How about an Elven Preserve that exerts a similar drawback-to-benefit dynamic? It's use different parameters ... I'm thinking a CpC base. (Culture per City) Instead of generating (un)happy faces, it'd (reduce)boost each city's commerce, or Health points.

Obviously the idea is in a nebulous stage. But I noticed the same thing you mentioned. In my game the AI civs got lousy starts. My elves grabbed a couple good early sites. After that the continent was my oyster. If I was playing the Khazad I would not have been able to exploit all that open terrain nearly as well. But the Cultured Elf buggers were able to build cities and expand their cultural borders like mad.

Evil Grin Time

So, since we all like how the Dwarven Vault encourages reclusive development for our Khazad, might we not want to stick it to the Elv... employ a similar reclusiveness mechanism with the similarly reclusive Elfin peoples?

Just askin'

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Well, does not the same general description also apply to Elves? Just substitute deep ancient forests for rugged highlands. In both cases you're looking at moderate-sized, reclusivesish, realms that 'punch above their weight' in one regard or another.

Point taken. I seem to be in the mood for concessions today.

However, I am worried about making the dwarves too much like the elves. It's become one of our True Sayings that we don't want to ever say "Like elves, but in hills!" here. Something must be done for the elves, of course (I've been in a few games where they've dominated and taken 20% of the world), but we were just discussing that on the balance changes thread. I don't want the elves to be "compact" like the dwarves, and I'm hoping that just making their economy dominate less will keep them from being too big. In any case, your cultural idea sounds interesting, but I'm not sure if it's the solution here.

How about this: elves are known for being reclusive and standoffish. I know this is out there, but bear with me. Let's make the Ljosalfar's borders immediately surrender to any other Civ that they have open borders with. So, the other Civ gets the lands that their culture expands into without having to fight the Ljosalfar's culture. However, the Ljosalfar get to work any tiles within their city radius as long as their units can travel there. Further, if there is a nearby rival city, the Ljosalfar city can work the tiles in its radius even if the rival city would normally have precedence, even if that tile happens to be right next to it.

I know it's out there, but maybe it's a starting point. Thoughts?

 

[Kael]

Yay! Getting the Hammerfists up to 7 generates the Giftzwerg grins. I gotta say, that 6 was irksome. I mean, if Dwarves can'teven be sluggers, what's left for the stout buggers to do?

Well, if the Dwarves don't get their upper tier units in 0.15, that's OK. They're coming, that's what matters. And the longer they take, the more chances I have to play other nations.

Yep, the tree-hugging dwarves strategy is the one I plan to try as soon as you release a version with the Dwarven forces fleshed out. I think it might be quite superior to the obvious Killmorph strategy. Having Dwarves with access to Nature II spells sounds pretty good. Clearly this is a strategy to peak in the later game, so the early game could be rough.

If the game allows a viable Dwarven tree-hugging nation what can you say but that the system is flexible and not a slave to role-playing sterotype.

I just noticed you posted the Khazad/Fellowship strategy a page ago (and here I thought I was clever). I told Thunderfall I need to be a moderator so I can avoid these embarrasing snafu's by moving my posts above those of people more clever than I am.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I just noticed you posted the Khazad/Fellowship strategy a page ago (and here I thought I was clever). I told Thunderfall I need to be a moderator so I can avoid these embarrasing snafu's by moving my posts above those of people more clever than I am.

Ha ha! Nothing like having the ability to retroactively de-foot one's mouth. Looking back over a lifetime dotted with embarassing utterances and social gaffes, I can say only Mmmf! Ghhuu hrrmph mrrp! Poit!

Um, I was saying, me too.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

However, I am worried about making the dwarves too much like the elves. It's become one of our True Sayings that we don't want to ever say "Like elves, but in hills!" here.

A wise True Saying I will take to heart.

I'm certainly not married tothe Elven Preserve idea. I'm sure it occured to me only because I played the Ljo immedeately after the Khazad. The difference between the two was sharp and clear. As Dwarves, I had to plan ahead on a few different levels. It was not enough to just to set up a city for settler production, this also had to be timed with financial health and the immedeacy of the need for that next R&D project. Then even after the city is built, Dwarves have to build something in it that generates culture (assuming Killmorph) before they really start to add a new province to the realm.

But as the Ljo, everything was suddenly easy. Elven units move fast in woods and jungle. What's the #1 movement impediment in the start-game? Woods and jungles. So I explored faster than the other guys, and spotted new city sites faster. Since you have a good map, you can plan your city builds to pinch off the othe guys' expansion, while blocking off a big chunk of land within your reach. As a Cultural civilization, the free +2 / turn lets you grab these chunks quickly. Then you fill in the open areas, and let the power of the Ljo/Leaves economic development (as discussed in the balance thread) kick in on all that territory. If the Fellowship of the Leaves + Ljo economy is as powerful as some say on the other thread, well, that might not be as big an issue if there was a tendancy in the Ljo to aim for "compact" realms, a la the Khazad and the Dwarven Vaults. That's the vague logic behind the idea.

As I said the contrast in expansion was striking. I've over 32% of the world now, and there is still probably 15-20% unclaimed/barbarian. I've cut off the other civs so much that it might be possible to win a Domination victory when all the unclaimed lands are at least conquered. So during this game it occured to me that a braking mechanism like the Dwarven Vault might be just the thing for the Elves too. (If I were Arturus/Khazad and somehow had mapped the same amount of territory as quickly, I still would not have been able to adopt the same national Grand Strategy.)

Of course we want to keep in mind your cardinal law, and I will admit I have not thought through the math on the idea. There's no over-riding reason why Elven expansion should be affected by a Culture per City index. I just ran it up the flagpole.

How about this: elves are known for being reclusive and standoffish. I know this is out there, but bear with me. Let's make the Ljosalfar's borders immediately surrender to any other Civ that they have open borders with. So, the other Civ gets the lands that their culture expands into without having to fight the Ljosalfar's culture. However, the Ljosalfar get to work any tiles within their city radius as long as their units can travel there. Further, if there is a nearby rival city, the Ljosalfar city can work the tiles in its radius even if the rival city would normally have precedence, even if that tile happens to be right next to it.

I know it's out there, but maybe it's a starting point. Thoughts?

Well, this would definitely change the % of territory owned by the Ljo, as they would essentially "lose" about 50% of the lands controled by their outer ring of cities. If they were a serpatine nation (say Chile) instead of a blob (Poland) they might lose 75% of their territory or more.

I'm afraid though that this would pose programming problems. I don't know if the cultural border subroutines can be altered. Worse might be getting the AI to understand how the rules have been changed. It seems to me at tis early stage that the more imaginative civilizations are also often bringing up the points total rear when run by the AI. The Kurioates have been lumps on a log in all three of my 2.14 games. The Mercurian spent 600+ years of navel-gazing when it became clear there were no Demons to fight in the given scenario. And we don't see the AI terraforming for instance. So I'm wondering how hard it would be to get the AI to understand this "shared" cultural borders concept.

There's also the matter of war. If the Ljo grant a neightbor this treaty, couldn't they move units right next to the Ljo city (or those workers) declare war, and attack immedeately? (This one is not an issue under existing Open Borders, so perhaps it wouldn't even under your modification.)

So at first blush, it sounds like it'd take a lot of programming, perhaps too much to be practical. More elegant solutions probably exist, so let's keep our thinking caps on.

 

[QES]

Alright, I see we've progressed so very far in our elf-dwarf symposium. But i have an idea.

For the elves, I have never known any fantasy to consider elves a populace race. They may (in some instances) have far reaching and large empires, but those empires are not often heavily populated. Instead of trying to encroach on elven culture (something i think they indeed do very well), why not limit the size and capasity of their cities? My idea is that it takes much longer for elven civilizations to grow, and once they DO grow they would require (for balance with nature) to build a building to allow them to grow further, the old aqeduct and sewer system mechanic?

The logic is like this, Elves are very old creatures, and they are not prone to reproducing as often as the....shall we say "dirtier" races. As is, their reproduction rates dont hurt as much because...well they also dont DIE as often. The consequence mechanic wise, i see as an addition of "stoppages" in growth, like older civ-versions, AND perhaps a retardation on their growth rate. I dont mean -food penalties, i am thinking more of it taking longer than normal to produce the next population point. It takes MORE and MORE food to increase the population as the population of a city gets higher. Why not always keep the "granery" at 2 or 3 population higher than normal to increase?

For example if it takes a size 1 city 20 NET total food to increase a point, and go to size 2, - and it takes a size 3 city a total of 60 net food, then for the elves we would simply change this to reflect slower growth. An elven city size 1 would take 60 food to get to size 2. Which would even then be MUCH farther along. THe effect of this (other than on early game strategies) would be that the elves when compared to a nation of equal size, development and technology, would most likely have a population PER CITY about 2 or 3 'points' smaller. This would definately affect many economic issues, but considering the other benefits the elves have, it would be interesting to see if this could be made to balance some things. If it turns out this little penalty is TOO much, then instead of getting rid of it (i like this idea) one could add something to "suggest" the benefits of aging over time, like science bonuses, or the like.

I hope this could potentially appease.
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

In Tolkien's Silmarillion, the elves were very numerous, they spread all over the world.

I remember reading that they had a slower birth rate, but that seems to have been balanced by the nonexistent death rate (and growth is birth rate - death rate). So im not entirely convinced they'd grow slower.

Artificial limits on population seem jarring. Slower growth (countered by great persons) seems like the better solution, though i can't say i see a reason for it.

For FfH2, i remember reading that the elves and dwarves and such weren't as common as humans. But isn't this already taken into account by the fact there's 21 civs and only two of them elves?

The focus should be on how to make other civs more interesting, no removing the interesting things in civs people like (a lot of people like elves as a rule in fantasy, as they are almost the epitome of fantasy for many).
Ideas like unpillageable mines for dwarves with higher chance of finding metals, how cool is that? given enough time all your hills will be giving tons of extra and .

 

[QES]

In Tolkien's Silmarillion, the elves were very numerous, they spread all over the world.

I remember reading that they had a slower birth rate, but that seems to have been balanced by the nonexistent death rate (and growth is birth rate - death rate). So im not entirely convinced they'd grow slower.

Artificial limits on population seem jarring. Slower growth (countered by great persons) seems like the better solution, though i can't say i see a reason for it.

For FfH2, i remember reading that the elves and dwarves and such weren't as common as humans. But isn't this already taken into account by the fact there's 21 civs and only two of them elves?

The focus should be on how to make other civs more interesting, no removing the interesting things in civs people like (a lot of people like elves as a rule in fantasy, as they are almost the epitome of fantasy for many).
Ideas like unpillageable mines for dwarves with higher chance of finding metals, how cool is that? given enough time all your hills will be giving tons of extra and .

Touche'. <Shrug> I was just trying to figure out a way to balance without "subtracting". I agree that other races need to be brought "up to speed' Instead of retarding the elves, i was just musing.

-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

nothin better than musing, more musing on the civs who are considered not up to speed

the Calabim need a bit more i think, in the early game they just don't feel very vampirey (getting Moroi's can take a bit, and vampires need a lot to get to)

lanun need more i think, one idea i thought of that would be nice is some sort of goody hut type thing in water squares to promote sea exploration


but i think this thread is about dwarves, and i really wish dwarves could build cities on mountains and generally get good tile yield from mountains (and have all their units able to walk on mountains). or more hp!

 

[QES]

nothin better than musing, more musing on the civs who are considered not up to speed

the Calabim need a bit more i think, in the early game they just don't feel very vampirey (getting Moroi's can take a bit, and vampires need a lot to get to)

lanun need more i think, one idea i thought of that would be nice is some sort of goody hut type thing in water squares to promote sea exploration


but i think this thread is about dwarves, and i really wish dwarves could build cities on mountains and generally get good tile yield from mountains (and have all their units able to walk on mountains).

What about giving the Calabim some "elder" type vampire that has all the qualities of being a vampire..perhaps even a hero. The downside is that this vampire may never leave the boarders of the civilization. (Can't be used to hose near by civs/enemies.) This vampire can be the "first" vampire. Thusly creating interesting lineages. Maybe even gets more powerful as it gets older, but still unable to leave its "homeland".
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

neat idea, i dunno if you can stop a unit from leaving your borders though

starting off with 1 vampire would be nice, it just seems strange that you're a civ of vamps and yet have no vampire units until mid tech

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Yeah, I was just throwing a crazy idea out there, didn't expect (or even want) it to be taken seriously. Now how about this one:

Elves grow slower, they have a slower birth rate, but they also get really old and wise. Therefore, 20-40% of their is instead made into raw .

Is it a handicap? Is it a benefit? Probably something in between. Useful when used, at least. Might be good to also change the : ratio.