Early Game Tile Yields

[joosegoose25]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed ad nauseum--I haven't had a whole lot of time to play with CBP lately, and haven't been able to keep up with discussions much here. I do understand that tile yields have been a bit of a hot button issue previously, though.

I understand the yield changes take a little getting used to, but I do see a couple annoyances early.

I think it is a bit of a problem when an improved resource tile (plantations on the perfume, and soon to be incense) is less desirable to work than unimproved tiles with no resources (flood plains, forest/jungle, other buffed tiles). Especially when you consider improved tiles with no resources (farms) that carry an additional food buff, it seems absolutely foolish that one would mess with their plantation resources at all until much later in the game, especially when it is immensely less vital to hook up luxuries.

I'm aware plantation resources were on the weaker side in base BNW as well, but I think an attempt to remedy this should be made rather than further increasing the gap. How does everyone else feel about this? Am I making a rather shortsighted judgement, or are plantation resources really this weak?

 

[Funak]

I think it is a bit of a problem when an improved resource tile (plantations on the perfume, and soon to be incense) is less desirable to work than unimproved tiles with no resources (flood plains, forest/jungle, other buffed tiles). Especially when you consider improved tiles with no resources (farms) that carry an additional food buff, it seems absolutely foolish that one would mess with their plantation resources at all until much later in the game, especially when it is immensely less vital to hook up luxuries.

I'm aware plantation resources were on the weaker side in base BNW as well, but I think an attempt to remedy this should be made rather than further increasing the gap. How does everyone else feel about this? Am I making a rather shortsighted judgement, or are plantation resources really this weak?

Guess why I'm planting all my great people improvements on plantation-luxuries.

 

[Finarvi]

Yeah, they seem really weak. I'd say that it's all because of increased base yields but I'm afraid that G won't change it back.

So I think that base +1 food to plantation resources would fix it somehow.

 

[Funak]

Yeah, they seem really weak. I'd say that it's all because of increased base yields but I'm afraid that G won't change it back.

So I think that base +1 food to plantation resources would fix it somehow.

Plantations were garbage before the yieldchanges aswell.
The biggest part of the problem is that most of the plantation-resources have extremely horrible base-yields as well. There are some exceptions, like Citrus, but most of them just add 1 or 2 gold, which in my eyes is pretty garbage.

 

[WileyNg]

Plantations are economic crops and their gold yield should scale up with era.

 

[TeeInKay]

I am pretty sure that plantations weren't a thing until the products being planted (?) were a major export. It's industrial size farming for the purposes of selling. Farms grow food to eat. Plantations grow product to sell. I think that a plantation should cost food to run (minus food in the tile maybe{even if it goes negative[you cannot have the resource unless you can support the food to run a plantation]}) and be worked to provide the luxury. I also think that they should get a scaling gold boost. And monopolies on plantation resources should be even stronger than on fished or mined resources.

 

[Gazebo]

Yeah, they seem really weak. I'd say that it's all because of increased base yields but I'm afraid that G won't change it back.

So I think that base +1 food to plantation resources would fix it somehow.

Speaking for me, eh?

The base yields weren't actually increased all that much, really. More scaling exists now, but you have to remember that %-based yield mods are almost completely absent in CBP (which is by design).

If we want to see a base +1 gold added to plantations, I can do that, no sweat. +1 food doesn't make 100% sense for all plantation crops (mm...delicious perfume), but gold does.

G

 

[TeeInKay]

Yeah the extra gold would make it a valid choice rather than a mistake to work those tiles.

 

[Funak]

Speaking for me, eh?

The base yields weren't actually increased all that much, really. More scaling exists now, but you have to remember that %-based yield mods are almost completely absent in CBP (which is by design).

If we want to see a base +1 gold added to plantations, I can do that, no sweat. +1 food doesn't make 100% sense for all plantation crops (mm...delicious perfume), but gold does.

G

Maybe looking over the base-yields of the resources rather than the plantation would be a better idea. I mean Citrus, Chocolate(I think) and Bananas are all rather fine, in fact Citrus is probably be second best luxury in the game after Salt. However a lot of other resources are just terrible (from my point of view anyways)

 

[DLimited]

I'd support the suggestion of improving Resource Plantations to offer +4 gold. Make it meaningful - gold is worth a lot less than a hammer, or an apple.

Another idea would be to buff the plantation pantheon, make them offer a bonus apple or something like that.

 

[Delekhan]

Plantation really isn't that impressive right now. It does get some nice buffs from technology, but that takes a really long time.

Granted, we are getting the yummy luxury resource with the plantation, but the opportunity cost of improving a plantation vs. making a village or spamming another farm seems rather high right now.

+1 gold is worth considering, but not +1 food unless it's bananas.

 

[Gazebo]

I'd support the suggestion of improving Resource Plantations to offer +4 gold. Make it meaningful - gold is worth a lot less than a hammer, or an apple.

Another idea would be to buff the plantation pantheon, make them offer a bonus apple or something like that.

+4? That seems high. +1 for now (I'm a stingy Lord).

G

 

[joosegoose25]

+4? That seems high. +1 for now (I'm a stingy Lord).

G

I was actually about to suggest +2...+1 before improving, and +1 after. 1 gold does not equal 1 food, and while I'm not sure 2 gold even equals 1 food it is much closer.

Not changing the unimproved yields would mean a plains incense tile is still 1 of each yield--a tile I am cringing if I have to work considering all the better unimproved non-resource tiles out there. If both the unimproved and improved yields are buffed, we now end up with a plantation yielding 1 food, 1 hammer, and 4 gold. Is that on par with a 3 food, 1 hammer plains wheat (with no granary or adjacent farm to boot)? I'm still not sure, but it's at least a decision now.

 

[Gazebo]

I was actually about to suggest +2...+1 before improving, and +1 after. 1 gold does not equal 1 food, and while I'm not sure 2 gold even equals 1 food it is much closer.

Not changing the unimproved yields would mean a plains incense tile is still 1 of each yield--a tile I am cringing if I have to work considering all the better unimproved non-resource tiles out there. If both the unimproved and improved yields are buffed, we now end up with a plantation yielding 1 food, 1 hammer, and 4 gold. Is that on par with a 3 food, 1 hammer plains wheat (with no granary or adjacent farm to boot)? I'm still not sure, but it's at least a decision now.

I've added a 'base' +1 Gold (currently, the only yield increases come from the resource being improved, not the improvement). Now you're guaranteed at least +1 gold, on top of what the resource provides (gold, hammers, food, etc.).

G

 

[Funak]

I've added a 'base' +1 Gold (currently, the only yield increases come from the resource being improved, not the improvement). Now you're guaranteed at least +1 gold, on top of what the resource provides (gold, hammers, food, etc.).

G

Wait, so Plantations didn't actually provide ANY yields at all?

 

[Gazebo]

Wait, so Plantations didn't actually provide ANY yields at all?

Correct, only the resource they were on top of provided yields (i.e. bananas food, spices gold, etc.).
G

 

[DLimited]

We could also add a culture to resource plantations, to differentiate them further.

 

[joosegoose25]

I've added a 'base' +1 Gold (currently, the only yield increases come from the resource being improved, not the improvement). Now you're guaranteed at least +1 gold, on top of what the resource provides (gold, hammers, food, etc.).

G

To use plains incense as an example, what would the yields be both before and after improving the tile? My understanding is you've changed it so it would still be 1/1/1 before, and 1/1/3 after. I really think it should be 1/1/2 before and 1/1/4 after or else it is still too weak, but we can play it conservatively for the time being.

 

[Gazebo]

To use plains incense as an example, what would the yields be both before and after improving the tile? My understanding is you've changed it so it would still be 1/1/1 before, and 1/1/3 after. I really think it should be 1/1/2 before and 1/1/4 after or else it is still too weak, but we can play it conservatively for the time being.

You have four potential layers of yields:

1. Terrain
2. Feature
3. Resource
4. Improvement

Right now, these are all additive. Since plantation elements can spawn in forests and jungles, I feel it proper to avoid over-saturating the value of the improvement itself, as the improvement is the (icing) on top of the tiered cake that is the layered yield system.

Now I'm hungry.
G

 

[joosegoose25]

You have four potential layers of yields:

1. Terrain
2. Feature
3. Resource
4. Improvement

Right now, these are all additive. Since plantation elements can spawn in forests and jungles, I feel it proper to avoid over-saturating the value of the improvement itself, as the improvement is the (icing) on top of the tiered cake that is the layered yield system.

Now I'm hungry.
G

I should have been more clear. I don't want all plantations improved (bananas and citrus are perfectly fine, as food is a great yield), it's just the ones that spawn on plains/grassland/desert and improve gold output that are underwhelming (perfume, incense, sugar, etc.). Gold is substituted for food in the case of these, except gold is an inferior yield in a 1:1 ratio.

More generally speaking, instances where a tile yields gold instead of food should be closer to 2 gold=1 food to make it closer to a decision. Here's another example I don't like:

Spoiler :

The coral tile and fish tile are honestly about equal here imo, with the decision on which to work coming from your needs atm. Only problem is this coral is improved, while the fish is not. Improving the fish makes it a 4 yield tile vs the 2 food, 2 gold coral, which makes the decision a no brainer. If we want food resources to be objectively superior to gold resources then this is fine, but I would argue that this should not be the goal.