Early Republic a good idea every time?

[Decebalus]

I've seen a few post about problems in switching to republic, and had similar problem myself nearly every time when I first started to play on the higher levels. On occation I still do depending on the situation.

Problems I'm refering to (C3C):
- unit support suddently causes your income to become a rather large -ve number
- citizens harder to keep happy during war
- no millitary police anymore which means some cities suddently riot

Question is, has anyone experimented with switching to an intermediate government such as Monarchy first? I have and I'm starting to like it. I just don't know the long term effects of doing it.

I play on Emperor in all my games, and I used to go straight for Republic using the Philosophy slingshot. Therefore, I tended to have Republic fairly early, and what I noticed is that unless I had a very good starting position, with at least 2 luxuries connected, switching to Republic leads to the latter mentioned problems.

In this last game I'm playing, I missed the slingshot, and eventually got Monarchy and figured I'd switch to it. I have none of the Republic problems and in terms of production and income it all seems to be as good as if I was in Republic. This is with lots of small (size 1-3) cities.

Comments? What's the drawback of Monarchy again?

 

[Bartleby]

The drawback of Monarchy is a second period of Anarchy if you move out of it. If you don't switch out of Monarchy you lose the commerce bonus of Republic.

 

[Decebalus]

What is the commerce difference?
I don't know how much of a bonus it is compared to the problems associated with Republic. Especially early on.

This is a typical situation I run into on Emperor:

Every citizen above the 1st in any city is unhappy. Which means I usually have lux set to 10%, and keep one unit in each city for the millitary police. If lucky I have one luxury nearby which lets most of my cities make it to size 3. The moment they become size 4 I need to make one an entertainer, and unless there's a cow or grain or something in the city radius, it means most cities won't make it higher then 4.

If I switch to Republic, that one millitary police is useless, so I disband most. BUT, no more millitary police means all those size 4 cities begin to riot.

So under Republic I'd either make another entertainer (which means most would starve down to 3) or increase the lux to 20%. Either way it seems to me I loose commerce/science because of less workers working, or having to slide the science down to 70%.

Now under Monarchy I noticed that nothing changes, except I get a boost in money and science. The military police is still in effect, those garrison units are supported so they don't come out of my pocket. On top of which, the irrigated grasslands now produce 3 food allowing my cities to grow past 4, which means more science and more commerce.

Again not sure what the commerce bonus loss comes out to in the long run, but it seems to me like Monarchy might be better early on then Republic.

Also, imagine the above scenario with no luxuries in sight. Even worst! And god forbid you go to war under Republic, because more citizend become unhappy.

 

[Tone]

Either way it seems to me I loose commerce/science because of less workers working, or having to slide the science down to 70%.

Don't look at the percentage rate, look at the amount of money going to research. I'd rather have 70% of a substancial amount rather than 90% of the smaller amount of commerce created by non-representative governments. (Republic gives +1 commerce for every tile worked by your citizens that is producing at least one commerce already.) If you are not convinced, save a game at the point where you are about to take up a new government and then play it forward for both Monarchy and Republic. Look at the differences in the F1 screen and then decide what you prefer.

 

[Decebalus]

What's the monarchy bonus on commerce?
Or there is none.

Oh don't get me wrong, I prefer Republic. Always did, and that's the eventual goal. It was just this freak one time where I decided to use Monarchy and to my surprize it seems to be better for the early game.

I was just curious if anyone experimented with doing this hopping to intermediate Monarchy instead of straight Republic. Looks promising and I think I'll stick with it in this game out of curiosity.

 

[Bartleby]

Corruption is lower that Despotism, but there's no specific Monarchy bonus.

I often feel the pinch when switching to Republic, but I really don't want to have to switch again so I ride out the few rough turns knowing that the bigger I get the more I'll benefit.

 

[Ringo Kid]

I like Monarchy then Communism, because I am always at war with somebody pretty much.

Thats another advantage of Monarchy I suppose, if you keep the AI at war their production will be reduced due to unhappiness as well, maybe even anarchy if its bad enough.

 

[civverguy]

I think early republic is a good idea if you have a lot of roads and can go to a golden age soon after you switch to republic. Since you get more commerce from republic, the luxury slider makes up for the military police.

 

[gmaharriet]

I'd say, as with ALL things CIV, it depends.

If you're playing a religious civ, I see little problem with going Monarchy first and Republic later. 2-turn anarchies are bearable.

When NOT playing a religious civ, I know the conventional wisdom says switch to Republic as soon as possible, but I sometimes wait to make the switch if I think the transition will be easier later. I may delay if I'm in the middle of a war, if I think I'll get additional lux with a few more towns, or any other situation where waiting makes sense to me.

Benefits of Republic - Tone already mentioned his preference for 70% of a larger amount going to science than 90% of a smaller amount. That additional gold piece on each tile worked that already produces one can add up quickly. You don't need MPs in your core cities far from your borders, so you can disband all those regular warriors/archers, and 10% on the lux slider in Republic is more happiness than 10% of the smaller income in Monarchy. If you're still having happiness problems, just build more settlers and workers to lower the population.

Don't use entertainers for happiness if taxmen or scientists will do...you get something back from them.

 

[Decebalus]

Benefits of Republic - Tone already mentioned his preference for 70% of a larger amount going to science than 90% of a smaller amount. That additional gold piece on each tile worked that already produces one can add up quickly.
...
Don't use entertainers for happiness if taxmen or scientists will do...you get something back from them.

Road everything, you get more gold for each worked tile and so on. Use taxmen not entertainers also good. All absolutely true, but when you have a bunch of big cities and have the citizens.

I find it nearly impossible to have big cities untill you find 2-3 luxuries, which is fairly hard and won't happen except later in the game.

Seriously, on Emperor, a size two city without any luxuries (even with lux slider at 10%) will riot.

 

[ecuwins]

Most of the time I go for Republic right away. An exception to this would be if I realize I am on an island then I will go for Map Making first then straight to Republic. Another exception would be the always war type situation. Like a small/tiny map pangea, then its Iron Working first and onto Monarchy.

 

[Mursi lives]

Even when playing a religious civ, there still is a problem with switching first to monarchy: you have to research ... monarchy! An optional and very expensive tech. Monarchy has worse unit support than despotism, almost equal corruption, and gold rush when you have barely enough gold to build embassies.
The only real benefit you get from early monarchy is the end of despotic tiles limitations, but unless you are about to get the GA, it is not so important, because you took that into account when you irrigated/mined the squares.

 

[Rising Star]

Monarchy is very useful if you intend to aggressively expand your empire through warfare, but otherwise, republic is the way to go. If you're having problems making the switch to republic, don't switch governments immediately. Ensure you have a few luxs hooked up, road everything, and micromanage your cities so they don't riot during anarchy. They can't produce anything then, but they can still grow in size, which gives you more bonuses when the anarchy wears off.

 

[Tone]

Seriously, on Emperor, a size two city without any luxuries (even with lux slider at 10%) will riot.

I play games at all levels, including Emperor+. 10% lux slider will produce a happy face in most cities worth bothering about but playing with the lux slider at 20% is not uncommon in my games. It can go higher than that if I am playing for 20K and want to keep my large 20K city productive. I'll have no problems outresearching the AI on such a level but using Monarchy would be a different issue, with roughly 30-40% less cash to plough into research.

Usually I try to keep my capital plus the first ring working on tiles, although if one city is food rich then the odd specialist is OK. The rest of the cities may well have specialists because if the lux slider is not keeping them happy, then the city is too corrupt to warrant further expenditure. That may well change when the FP is built and/or luxes are claimed but until then they build what they can and manage with what help the empire can afford to give them (i.e. what the core needs).

I don't go for Republic without thinking about the situation (assuming that I have a choice of governments) but I need a very good reason not to go that way. No luxes is not a good reason IMO.

 

[Pyrrhos]

If I switch to Republic, that one millitary police is useless, so I disband most. BUT, no more millitary police means all those size 4 cities begin to riot.

This confuses me. Are you saying you disband your military units, leaving towns empty (because units cost gold)? If so, you've just added an unhappy face - which you have to take care of by building temples/colosseums/marketplaces, buying luxes (as I assume everyone connects every available lux asap) or taking money from the coffers/and or research.

Furthermore, if you take a more long-term view, you have to build those soldiers anew later on. Why not keep them and upgrade them? Costs gold, but gives you instant access to the latest available mil unit in large numbers. Personally, I try to build as few warriors as possible and start producing vet spearmen asap. Eventually, those vet spearmen will become vet mech inf. The one increment less on the lux slider allows faster research and using one more tile - usually a mined BG or Hill - and over 50 turns or so, that's a huge advantage.

If initially I need to put the lux tax at 30% or even 40%, well, so be it. Once most town grow to >pop5, the commercial bonus kicks in and all is right. You could say that with most towns small (pop 2-4), republic does not have much of an advantage over despo/monarchy). But when the expansion phaze is over, you have marketplaces in most towns, and the prime goal is to grow a population and improve towns and land, republic is superior. Eventually, your research times will drop significantly below those possible with despo or monarchy and you will make money at the same time with enough to spare to upgrade units an rush improvements.

 

[Mursi lives]

The point is that disbanding under republic saves 2 gpt and doesnt add any unhappy face. And yes, it is very common to leave empty cities under republic when they are not at the border of your empire.
Upgrading vet warriors into vet swords is good, but turning regular warriors into regular swords isnt worth 60 gold. And we have to build regulars warriors at the start of the game to explore/make contacts.

 

[Pyrrhos]

That's right. Three of them plus a galley/curragh are needed for exploration and contact. After that, I build barracks and start producing vets that go out and occupy the positions I want town in. This way, less barb and neighbour problems. After which the settlers come. Usually, I end up with a pretty sizeable chunk of land and any aggressive neighbour ends up dead. Plus few civs try extortion as I have a good mil force so I can build in relative peace on monarch/emperor.

 

[RFHolloway]

Three of them plus a galley/curragh are needed for exploration and contact.

Of course you meant 2 boats, one to go clockwise and the other anti clockwise, plus extras if you are playing continents to discover the other land mass

But I find the earlier the switch to republic the better (ideally around turn 80 if I have a good start). If I stay in despot I tend to build more MP's than I should. These MP's are then useless when I inveitably switch. Switching early forces me to

a) use the Lux slider properly (which I should be doing anyway)
b) Build workers and settlers in cities that are growing fast (which I should be doing anyway) Including cash rushing them where needed
c) Road all the tiles I am working to make the most of republic's commerce bonus (which I should be doing anyway)
d) connect luxes up (which I should be doing eventually)

If all that doesn't solve the problem the the use of the odd scientist is not too harmful

 

[Pyrrhos]

Of course you meant 2 boats, one to go clockwise and the other anti clockwise, plus extras if you are playing continents to discover the other land mass

But of course! A lapse on my part, very remiss of me.

 

[hrhomer]

What I often do is have a nice Great Library prebuild going, so when I get Republic, I can immediately or soon thereafter put research to zero, which combats the unit support problem until I have roads everywhere.

Joe