Early SE game on Prince+

[panda_pajama]

Hi, first post here, even though I've been a lurker for more than 7 years in here.

I fell ill a few days before, so I got some days off work. I thought I'd give another try at my favorite Civ of them all.

So far, I can pretty much beat the game comfortably in Monarch using CE, and I thought I should try the SE, which I had never tried because I was a bit scared it would take too much micromanagement, but what the whoohee! let's try something different for a change, so I started my new game at Prince, and chose Ghandi, which seems an interesting choice for SE. (I'm playing Warlords) The fast worker is pretty cool too.

After reading the beginner's guide to SE, I thought I was ready and started a few games. I'm doing several things very differently from when I played financial/CE, and I still can't figure out how to clear the very early game.

So first, I try to focus my first city to commerce, second city to production, and third city to science. Especially for the science city, I try to look for lots of freshwater to get lots of good farms going up, and one or two health related resources.

Since SE is all about surplus food, I need to get a worker very soon. I start with Warrior->Worker, Worker->Warrior, and I even tried Worker->Settler. Unfortunately, the worker slows down growth for a very long time.

When I get my second city up, I usually have my worker ready to start a farm over there and finish a road from the capitol. By this time I already have one or two farms in the capitol, which has already grown to size 4.

I start my second city with either warrior or immediately library (it's supposed to be a production city, so warrior makes more sense, since my initial warrior is still out getting as many huts as possible). By this time, I'm usually getting my second worker in the capitol, or even my second settler to get the third city up as soon as possible.

When I place my third city, I get my worker(s) there to start one or two farms, and get a library right away. In my second city I'm making a warrior to get to the third city (no archery yet because of the tech choice, see below)

Techwise, instead of balancing research all over, I start with farming, wheel, masonry, bronze working (for chopping) then try to get writing as soon as possible, then immediately alphabet to start tech trading. I completely disregard all other tech, specially archery and iron working.

By this time I start the pyramids, either in the capitol or the prod city. I then get as many workers there to help with chopping.

Once I get alphabet, I start tech trading (not a fan of it though), and get most of the gaps I had. The tech city's library is now ready, and I start specializing.

Some 10 turns later, I get my first Great Scientist and lightbulb Compass (meh).

By this point, the pyramids are still some 25 turns away, and somebody else beats me to them. Even when I have stone (which is once in a blue moon). I notice I still only have three cities, while every AI has at least 5. I have a pathetic military composed of a handful of warriors, while the AI has 3 or more archers per city, and with axes and swords headed for me. In the graphs I'm last place in everything. A few turns later, the barbs, which I had almost kept at line, take over one of my cities.

At this point I quit the game. I don't think it's very much salvageable at this point, even though I did everything just as I think I'm supposed to.

I tried the same idea with some variations at least 8 different times, and more or less it all ends the same.

My problem is that growth is very very slow in the early game under these conditions. Usually for a CE, I would focus on growth and military very early on, with a more balanced tech tree, and start cottage spam around medieval age, now that I have 6 or more cities and a very healthy military.

I don't understand how SE is supposed to work, as I understand it is very dependent on the very early game. I can't manage to clear the first 100 turns without seeing it take some kind of form. I keep reading SE is compatible with warmongering, but I simply cannot see how that is supposed to happen.

I read the whole specialist economy thread, but there's hardly anything mentioning the very early game (first 20 turns).

Could anybody point me in the right direction to get a good SE start?

 

[lymond]

Not sure why you are not playing BTS

Anyway, SE can be made to work on most levels sure, but really has become unpopular over the years, with more focus on hybrid types of economies. In other words, the terminology is kinda outdated. To me the best use of SE is the SE/WWE (World wonder economy) for One city challenge games. Otherwise, in most games I focus on hybrid economies with still good cottage cities and a Bureau cap. Specialists and Great People are still important to all games regardless (well, except for fast early BC conquest games)

Really, considering some of the stuff you are describing, and obvious flaws, I'd recommend focusing less on pure SE economies and more on just basics of the game which you appear to lack.

Really, I need to see your game to provide focus advice, but first of all, worker first has long been proven the most optimal of starts in just about any situation (except some coastal starts) Usually grow to size 3 for first settler, or size 4 to 4>2 whip with overflow into new worker.

I'm also a bit confused by your mentioning of "farms". The focus on workers early is specials. Food specials first, production/strat specials, chops, and at minimum roads to link cities. I assume by farm though, you mean regular 3F farms, but I rarely see the need for any of these early unless food is really an issue. You should be settling food specials regardless, which should provide enough food for a city's happy cap or early specialists. Worker management is huge important as you move up levels, so balancing these improvement decisions is very important.

Really no reason to lose mids on Monarch with stone nearby. It shows my that you have flaws in certain areas, by I can't fully ascertain what these are without seeing your games.

Slow growth, again really see no reason for this if you are settling and improving cities properly. Granary is usually the first building in every city unless culture is needed, but if you settle cities properly, or overlap cities with abundant food for food sharing, then culture is really not that important. Granary is by far the most important building in the game.

Also details on settings is helpful as well. Your perceived slowness might be that you are playing on marathon (ugh) or something. It's all relative.

Anyway, SE is indeed about food and the mids, sure. However, it is a more advanced strategy that I'm not sure you are ready for. The early game is indeed very important, so learning how to play your early game better is a good idea. Post games here and we can help you more, although I really recommend that you play BTS with the BUG or BAT mod.

(edit: by the way, your tech path mentioned above is actually not bad, but usually I want BW asap after getting whatever food tech I need if I don't have it - FOOD specials are ALWAYS most important - BW working for slavery and chops is huge) A+ on not teching archery and IW. TEch trading is fabulous, but should be used judiciously on lower levels like Monarch. Currency is also I very good early tech.

Barbs - usually easy to deal with if using proper spawnbusting unless you are playing huge maps (ugh)

AIs - diplomacy

 

[Anysense]

I keep reading SE is compatible with warmongering, but I simply cannot see how that is supposed to happen.

-Warmongering requires slavery on the other hand SE requires caste. This is one of the most serious issues with SE.
-Another problem is that most commonly the landscape is not suitable for SE.
-Important to notice that the higher difficulty the less your chances on Mids.
And so on. SE has many limitations. No wonder that there are no good players which follow those old guides. You can find a guide to the hybrid economy in the strategy articles section.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=548667

 

[panda_pajama]

Well, I don't play BTS because I simply never bought it. 90% of the time I play vanilla, but from time to time I play Warlords.

Anyways, I rebought the entire game on Steam, considering that the disc version probably won't work on Win10.

It seems there's a lot of new rules I didn't even know existed. So I'll play BTS for a while and be back in a few years.

 

[TalladegaKnight]

Well, I don't play BTS because I simply never bought it. 90% of the time I play vanilla, but from time to time I play Warlords.

Anyways, I rebought the entire game on Steam, considering that the disc version probably won't work on Win10.

It seems there's a lot of new rules I didn't even know existed. So I'll play BTS for a while and be back in a few years.

Or just post a game once you get it working and we'll follow along with you.