Early tweaks

[Rwn]

This modmod introduces several tweaks for the early game that I found interesting based on my own experience. I thought others could also be interested in it - if so, I'd be glad to have additional feedback on how it changes the game experience.

To install it, just extract it in Modules/My_Mods/EarlyTweaks. Though several tweaks are intended to work together, they are mostly modular, meaning that if you're not interested in a given tweak, just remove the corresponding file.

Here's what each tweak does, why and which file is relevant.


Profitable Hunting (Animals_CIV4UnitInfos.xml & Subdue_Animals_CIV4UnitInfos.xml)
This tweak increases the and from killing animals by 5 and butchering subdued animals by 10. This makes hunting a key contributors for your early growth.
Note: There are some animals missing and I believe Dancing Hoskuld is still adding animals anyway, but the tweak should still have a significant impact.

No early costly buildings (EarlyBuildingsLowMaint_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml)
This tweak removes the cost of most prehistorical buildings and reduces it significantly for a few others.
Currently those buildings are really not worth building in Prehistorical era as they will crush your economy; it seems the AI is still building them so I hope it will both make the players consider these buildings and help the AI manage its economy.

Higher cost of number of cities (Highermaintenance_CIV4CivicInfos.xml)
This tweaks significantly increases the maintenance cost of cities due to the number of cities in your empire.
The increase is 0% for Anarchy, 20% for Chiefdom, 50% for Despotism, 80% for Hereditary Rule and 100% for the others.
The idea is to keep early expansion as is (it's already a good challenge) while making it more difficult to suddenly spam cities around Classical when is flowing.

Less food kept (LowerGranaries_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml)
This tweak significantly reduces the amount of food kept on pop growth granted by buildings. Currently it's possible to get 50% of your food kept early on and much more later on, leading to a very fast city growth.
Now you won't get past 20% with Granary + Cellar + Icehouse + Warehouse for instance (some wonders might allow you to get a bit further though).

Altered science from myths (Mythmodifiers_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml)
This tweak makes myths grant +1% instead of +1 . This effectively slows down research in Prehistorical/early Ancient, while maintaining a benefit in looking for myths. By the time you have enough to even out the difference, you'll probably have already reach the techs that obsolete most myths.
Also, I believe myth hunting is an area where the player is much better than the AI so it should help it a bit staying tech competitive.
Note: I believe Dancing Hoskuld is still adding myths so in time you'll probably see new +1 myths.

No AI head start (NoAIheadstart_CIV4HandicapInfo.xml)
This tweaks removes the free techs and free units the AI has at the beginning of the game. While I'm OK with AI bonuses on the long run (such as faster science or production), I find those bonuses rather annoying - the worst is in Emperor+Nightmare difficulty where the AI starts with two tribes. Also, since you discover other civs quickly, tech diffusion makes early tech too fast to discover.
Note: It will only work on Monarch+Nightmare difficulty (the setting I'm using).
Edit: Oddly, it seems to work only if you remove the original file in Modules/StrategyOnly, even if My_Mods is later in the load order :/

Slower production (Slowerprod_CIV4GameSpeedInfo.xml)
This tweaks doubles the cost of all buildings.
This is intended to balance the additional you get from the Profitable Hunting tweak early on, and to make it more difficult to build everything everywhere later on.
Note: It will only work on Snail speed (the setting I'm using).

Weaker early sneaking units (WeakerEarlySneak_CIV4UnitClassInfos.xml & WeakerEarlySneak_CIV4UnitInfos.xml)
This tweak lowers the strength the four early sneaking units (Thief, Rogue, Ambusher, Assassin to 1, 2, 2 and 4 respectively) and limits each of them to 2 units at the same time (previously Ambusher had no limit, Assassin was 3 and the others were already limited at 2).
In my experience those units were far too powerful early on and are able to kill ordinary troops on a regular basis (a well experienced Ambusher or two are even able to kill a master tracker/hunter). This makes them still useful to kill weak or weakened units (or undefended workers), but not to defeat reliably regular military.

View attachment EarlyTweaks.7z

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Profitable Hunting (Animals_CIV4UnitInfos.xml & Subdue_Animals_CIV4UnitInfos.xml)
This tweak increases the and from killing animals by 5 and butchering subdued animals by 10. This makes hunting a key contributors for your early growth.
Note: There are some animals missing and I believe Dancing Hoskuld is still adding animals anyway, but the tweak should still have a significant impact.

Completely negating the stuff put in to slow down growth in the first place Not to mention your changes to food kept.

I am experimenting with having the yield increase by techs. Hunting, Scraping, Trapping and the like.

Altered science from myths (Mythmodifiers_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml)
This tweak makes myths grant +1% instead of +1 . This effectively slows down research in Prehistorical/early Ancient, while maintaining a benefit in looking for myths. By the time you have enough to even out the difference, you'll probably have already reach the techs that obsolete most myths.
Also, I believe myth hunting is an area where the player is much better than the AI so it should help it a bit staying tech competitive.
Note: I believe Dancing Hoskuld is still adding myths so in time you'll probably see new +1 myths.

That defeats the whole point of these buildings. They are there to simulate the burst of scientific discovery in the early period. The problem with that is that instead of being able to get them from start pressure has been put on to have them require buildings before you can build them.

Having the +1 turn into +1% at some stage may be a better way to go.

Less food kept (LowerGranaries_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml)
This tweak significantly reduces the amount of food kept on pop growth granted by buildings. Currently it's possible to get 50% of your food kept early on and much more later on, leading to a very fast city growth.
Now you won't get past 20% with Granary + Cellar + Icehouse + Warehouse for instance (some wonders might allow you to get a bit further though).

About time this was done.

 

[Rwn]

Completely negating the stuff put in to slow down growth in the first place Not to mention your changes to food kept.

Pace isn't bad in Prehistorical era so if it evens out it's good.
I'm currently in a game with those tweaks + specialized cities, it's actually working rather well. I've found Butchery gain is a bit high though (40 and from a bear is too much), but now I really feel like hunting to feed my main city

I think next I'll play a bit with chasers/trackers/hunters to make them less costly to build but weaker while making some wild animals strongers to make room for some epic hunts.

If food is too abundant I'll see if it's worth increasing the amount required to increase pop.

I am experimenting with having the yield increase by techs. Hunting, Scraping, Trapping and the like.

That sounds really good!

That defeats the whole point of these buildings. They are there to simulate the burst of scientific discovery in the early period. The problem with that is that instead of being able to get them from start pressure has been put on to have them require buildings before you can build them.

I can't say from a realistic point of view, but from a gameplay perspective I find it works rather well. Tech mid and late prehistorical are a bit longer to discover and rival civs seem to be on par or a bit ahead of me in tech even without their free initial techs.

Having the +1 turn into +1% at some stage may be a better way to go.

I'd rather consider the opposite: each +1 is a really large boost early on while +1% starts to get better later (mid-ancient I'd say). This means that the number of animal myths you're able to get has/would have a very strong influence on your tech speed, something that I don't find very desirable since it's too random (depending on your initial position, number of other AIs on your continent, etc.) and the AI doesn't seem that good with it. I like that mini-game, but not that it is so decisive in the tech race.

About time this was done.

Glad if it helps. Feel free to integrate whatever you want.

 

[Harrier]

IMO, a modmod should work for every speed/difficulty level - to avoid confusion.

Here's what each tweak does, why and which file is relevant.

No AI head start (NoAIheadstart_CIV4HandicapInfo.xml)
This tweaks removes the free techs and free units the AI has at the beginning of the game. While I'm OK with AI bonuses on the long run (such as faster science or production), I find those bonuses rather annoying - the worst is in Emperor+Nightmare difficulty where the AI starts with two tribes.
Note: It will only work on Monarch+Nightmare difficulty (the setting I'm using).
:/

Slower production (Slowerprod_CIV4GameSpeedInfo.xml)
This tweaks doubles the cost of all buildings.
This is intended to balance the additional you get from the Profitable Hunting tweak early on, and to make it more difficult to build everything everywhere later on.
Note: It will only work on Snail speed (the setting I'm using).

No AI head start

Why only on Monarch and Nightmare difficulty? Losing a lot of potential users.

Slower production Note: It will only work on Snail speed (the setting I'm using).

Again - why only snail speed. It should work for every speed. To avoid confusing players.

 

[Faustmouse]

Hydro has always been the guardian of buildings, does anyone know if/when he want to return to C2C? Because otherwise this position is available and you, rwn, seem to have a good look on how things interact. Your idea with the modmod was a good choice to experiment with stuff and if something works out well I'd vote towards implenting those changes to the main mod. I think you did a good job so far and you should have SVN writing access!

(All my coments are not based on actual gameplay, since I don't have much time to play c2c lately )

Profitable Hunting

That sounds pretty cool! However, I think you overdid it a little. An increased hunting outcome should come slowly with techs and buildings; like DH said, Scraping etc or having Baskets may increase the outcome. I'd also include Butchery and it's predecessor here.


No early costly buildings

Higher cost of number of cities

If you combine these two then it will clearly make smaller empires more valuable again, nice!


Less food kept

As DH said: About time... I'd vote to integrate this in the main mod as well.


Altered science from myths

I'm on DH's side here I guess, eventhough they are random. Maybe a thing in between would be cool: All the family myths (bear, wolf, Big Cat...) could give +1 (or more?) and when you can distinguish the species (Moon Bear, Sun Bear...) these could give +1% . This would reduce the overall you get from myths early on, and also reduces the random factor a little, while later your hunting for myths will still be awarded.


No AI head start

It is deity / nightmare for a reason I'd say... The bonus of an extra tribe is HUGE for sure, but these difficulties are meant to be next to impossible and a good head start of the AI is crucial here since it doesn't perfom very well. You could start a game at immortal and then increase the difficult to deity right after the first turn to give the AI a better handicap but get rid of their extra tribe.

What I like most though would be a modular difficult setting, were you can check if the AI should start with an extra tribe, with advanced defenders, how much roduction: etc bonus it gets and how hard Crime etc hits you. I


Slower production

I think this option already existed, but I admit that I never used it. It would make the game more interesting I guess, but my OCD demands having empty building queues

 

[Rwn]

IMO, a modmod should work for every speed/difficulty level - to avoid confusion.

Well, mainly because those were originally tweaks I wanted for my games and shared them so they could be interesting to others... At some point I might update the files if they work well in practice.

 

[Rwn]

Hydro has always been the guardian of buildings, does anyone know if/when he want to return to C2C? Because otherwise this position is available and you, rwn, seem to have a good look on how things interact. Your idea with the modmod was a good choice to experiment with stuff and if something works out well I'd vote towards implenting those changes to the main mod. I think you did a good job so far and you should have SVN writing access!

Well, most of my changes are based on my own view of interesting balance/gameplay, I don't know if others share it (nor if it's the view of the C2C team) so I'm a bit more comfortable with staying with optional modmods Though of course I'm more than glad if you decide to integrate some in the game.

Altered science from myths

I'm on DH's side here I guess, eventhough they are random. Maybe a thing in between would be cool: All the family myths (bear, wolf, Big Cat...) could give +1 (or more?) and when you can distinguish the species (Moon Bear, Sun Bear...) these could give +1% . This would reduce the overall you get from myths early on, and also reduces the random factor a little, while later your hunting for myths will still be awarded.

To be honest, after some playtest I found a downside of the +1% : it makes keeping the slider at 100% :research: even more important (since you lose the benefit of the myths otherwise), that's not a very good thing IMHO.

On the other side it seems to do a good job in lowering the income from myths and keeping rival civs tech competitive (I'm end of prehistorical era and not ahead in tech with no inital AI free tech).

Would there be a way to have it both ways, such as fractional +? Or having a building that provides bonuses based on how many myths you have (such as +1 if you have 1 myth, +2 if you have 2-3 myths, +3 if you have 4-6 myths, +4 if you have 7-10 myths, etc.)?

No AI head start

It is deity / nightmare for a reason I'd say... The bonus of an extra tribe is HUGE for sure, but these difficulties are meant to be next to impossible and a good head start of the AI is crucial here since it doesn't perfom very well. You could start a game at immortal and then increase the difficult to deity right after the first turn to give the AI a better handicap but get rid of their extra tribe.

What I like most though would be a modular difficult setting, were you can check if the AI should start with an extra tribe, with advanced defenders, how much roduction: etc bonus it gets and how hard Crime etc hits you. I

Well, the problem I have with the extra tribe is that it completely changes the early game (which is supposed to be a 1-city civ trying to survive); it feels kinda like giving a free musketeer unit at start to the AI to help it early on... Stronger bonuses in production, research, gold, whatever to make it more competitive as well as harder crime etc. are perfectly fine IMHO, so I was a bit disappointed that you'd get those extra free tech/units/cities along with the other settings if you wanted to up the difficulty. Bottom line is, I agree with you regarding modular difficult settings

Slower production

I think this option already existed, but I admit that I never used it. It would make the game more interesting I guess, but my OCD demands having empty building queues

That's why there's a Specialized Cities modmod under construction
There's an option that increases building costs, but also unit costs; I kinda like unit production speed how it is...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

To be honest, after some playtest I found a downside of the +1% : it makes keeping the slider at 100% :research: even more important (since you lose the benefit of the myths otherwise), that's not a very good thing IMHO.

On the other side it seems to do a good job in lowering the income from myths and keeping rival civs tech competitive (I'm end of prehistorical era and not ahead in tech with no inital AI free tech).

Would there be a way to have it both ways, such as fractional +? Or having a building that provides bonuses based on how many myths you have (such as +1 if you have 1 myth, +2 if you have 2-3 myths, +3 if you have 4-6 myths, +4 if you have 7-10 myths, etc.)?

Not without programming. This will all change if/when we get the Nomadic Start working.

In the mean time I will look at +1 until Tribalism when it converts to +1% but I don't even know if we have the tags for this.

 

[Rwn]

In the mean time I will look at +1 until Tribalism when it converts to +1% but I don't even know if we have the tags for this.

Frankly I think I'd consider a permanent +1 better than switching halfway... especially as it would lead to a sudden drop in output when you discover the critical tech.

Is there a thread or something regarding the Nomadic Start? I'd be curious to see what it is

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Frankly I think I'd consider a permanent +1 better than switching halfway... especially as it would lead to a sudden drop in output when you discover the critical tech.

Is there a thread or something regarding the Nomadic Start? I'd be curious to see what it is

I could get what I want by reducing the costs of all techs before Tribalism by 20%, I suppose. Then use Myths for something else or just get rid of them.

 

[Noriad2]

Also, I believe myth hunting is an area where the player is much better than the AI so it should help it a bit staying tech competitive.

Not sure if that is true, the AI does capture a lot of animals. Also there is the subject of diminished returns: the more animals you catch, the higher the chance you already have the myth (*cough* tapirs are the new bears *cough*)

The AI is helped in staying competitive anyway by having tech bonuses (assuming an experienced human player plays on the higher difficulty levels).
Nevertheless, hunting all those animals (or more precise, building the units to hunt them) requires a considerable investment of resources for the human player. If that investment is made worthless, the human player will suddenly have a lot of excess production. What should he invest that in?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Not without programming. This will all change if/when we get the Nomadic Start working.

In the mean time I will look at +1 until Tribalism when it converts to +1% but I don't even know if we have the tags for this.

DH, for the main mod I hope you don't.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

DH, for the main mod I hope you don't.

JosEPh

Unless I turn off traits I am finding no one can beat me on normal/noble difficulty because of the myths. Without traits they can and do beat me. This suggests something wrong with the Myths or the Science trait IMO.

The Myths were intended as only a boost in the early game. This suggestion should mean a more gradual lessening of the science from them. I.E. it does not all go at Writing.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Unless I turn off traits I am finding no one can beat me on normal/noble difficulty because of the myths. Without traits they can and do beat me. This suggests something wrong with the Myths or the Science trait IMO.

The Myths were intended as only a boost in the early game. This suggestion should mean a more gradual lessening of the science from them. I.E. it does not all go at Writing.

Traits no matter which Option turned On is still a Big bag of Worms impo. I still will not use any of them with the exception of occasionally using Focused. I thought ls612 did a better job then the others. Sgt. Slick's needed much much more testing before they should've been added, again impo. Remember I argued over his settings and even presented data of how extreme some of them were/still are.

So I playtest without any Trait Options on and I'm not keeping up with the AI on Prince or Monarch now. I've even failed in the last 2 new games to even get Tengri like i used to be able to do. I'm now 2,000 game years behind getting Tengri even when I try to beeline thru the techtree from the start. And most of the time I'm receiving Tech Diffusion help!

But then I don't build every Myth either as I find I have other more pressing needs most of the time, including enough to field a decent army to protect me from invasion.

So after all that, I agree with your assessment.

JosEPh

 

[Rwn]

(Less food kept in granaries)

About time this was done.

Do you want to merge those changes in core? (if so I'll send you the current CIV4BuildingInfo.xml file with those changes directly merged in each entry)

Here are the new values:

Type | iFoodKept
BUILDING_GRANARY | 10
BUILDING_MODERN_GRANARY | 15
BUILDING_POTALA_PALACE | 10
BUILDING_CELLAR | 2
BUILDING_MARINE_FESTIVAL | 5
BUILDING_ICEHOUSE | 4
BUILDING_STORAGE_PIT | 4
BUILDING_REFIGERATOR_FACTORY | 2
BUILDING_WAREHOUSE2 | 4
BUILDING_WAREHOUSE | 9
BUILDING_STRATEGIC_GRAIN_RESERVE | 5

 

[Toffer90]

Do you want to merge those changes in core? (if so I'll send you the current CIV4BuildingInfo.xml file with those changes directly merged in each entry)

Here are the new values:

Spoiler :

Type | iFoodKept
BUILDING_GRANARY | 10
BUILDING_MODERN_GRANARY | 15
BUILDING_POTALA_PALACE | 10
BUILDING_CELLAR | 2
BUILDING_MARINE_FESTIVAL | 5
BUILDING_ICEHOUSE | 4
BUILDING_STORAGE_PIT | 4
BUILDING_REFIGERATOR_FACTORY | 2
BUILDING_WAREHOUSE2 | 4
BUILDING_WAREHOUSE | 9
BUILDING_STRATEGIC_GRAIN_RESERVE | 5

I vote yes on this one.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am not sure about the wonders. They can be in only one city so their effect should be more to do with their cost.

 

[Rwn]

I am not sure about the wonders. They can be in only one city so their effect should be more to do with their cost.

The effect are still quite significant due to the cumulative effect:

Early on:
Granary + Icehouse + Cellar + Warehouse = 20%

Later on:
Modern Granary + Cellar + Modern Warehouse + Refrigerator Factory = 28%
and +33% if with Strategic Grain Reserve

(I'm even wondering whether that's still a bit high...)


This means that a city with also Potala Palace and Great Marine Festival can add +15% on top of that for a total of 35% early or 48% late with also SGR - growing twice as fast should be the limit IMHO.

Each of them (Great Marine Festival, Potala Palace and Strategic Grain Reserve) provide very strong effects independently from their iFoodKept, so reducing it won't really lower the attractiveness of those wonders.

 

[Toffer90]

The effect are still quite significant due to the cumulative effect:

Early on:
Granary + Icehouse + Cellar + Warehouse = 20%

Later on:
Modern Granary + Cellar + Modern Warehouse + Refrigerator Factory = 28%
and +33% if with Strategic Grain Reserve

(I'm even wondering whether that's still a bit high...)


This means that a city with also Potala Palace and Great Marine Festival can add +15% on top of that for a total of 35% early or 48% late with also SGR - growing twice as fast should be the limit IMHO.

Pretty sure the national grain reserve only affect the city it's built in, so the maximum of 28% in all cities with 1 city that can potentially reach a maximum of 48% seems reasonable to me. We could always make it less of a first priority to build "Modern Granary + Cellar + Modern Warehouse + Refrigerator Factory" through increasing the hammer cost for some of them (warehouse is especially inexpensive atm).