[BTS] Earth 18 civs - How to Win (Monarch-Emperor) : 4th game - Japan (Immortal :eek: ) - many calculations, I would appreciate replays from the pros

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Given you're going TGL, music wouldn't be bad. But use it for a GA (once you have CoL as well) and use the GS for Philo, so you can get some GS out with Caste + Paci.

Edit: on the other hand, you need to start thinking about happiness. How can you get a size 10 capital that's happy by 1 AD? Monarchy or Calendar. In this case, you have a lot of Calendar resources so going Calendar is more cost effective.

Yea, in most cases before I used the artist for a GA, but a GA doesn't give me land. And calendar doesn't give me land too. Happiness is fine, but when I need to decide whether I get more territory or get a big capital, I tend to the territory.

The Great Artist grants me 1 city. I can even choose between Nanjing in China and Vandale in SE-asia, where I get a city from India. Both is valuable territory, not just happiness. When I culture-bomb China, I cripple him completely, so he cannot stand against Mongolia anymore. Wen I culture-bomb India, I stop his ambitions in SE-asia and secure elephants. And India won't attack me for this, but I am not sure about China, which I could culturally overtake with theatres and some employed artists.

I tend to choose the research order:

Currency -> Drama and trade for Maths, when possible. After that going for Music.

Meanwhile Kyoto could finish the Great Lib and thenafter build only military to defend the mainland cities.
I settle Laos for elephants and progress settling Indonesia while building up military to get 1.0 ratio with China. And after Music I just go culturebombing Laos or Bridgehead.

But maybe other players have an input here.

I am not sure, whether the standardway to liberalism with GA and bulbing is the best here, or if I should go for a huge territory without competitors instead

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Just for information:

Culture Mechanics Disassembled - CivFanatics

(Please note that all information given here is in regards to Vanilla Civ 1.61. It is probably unchanged in Warlords and the as yet unpublished Beyond the Sword expansion, but I have no way of being certain.)(Also note that the following information will generally refer to normal speed games...

civfanatics.com

It is a bit complicated to read, but reading this I understand more about culture-bombing.

Core aspects:
- The city gets exactly 4000 , but this isn't the important part
- The surrounding plots get a specific amount of culture, depending on radius and how much culture the city produces
- When launching the bomb, the launching city should produce already much culture to conquer nearby plots
- This can be so huge, that a city, which is already in cultural advantage contrary another nearby city completely overwhelms it; When 2 cities are only 3 plots away, a solid 10 producing city can completely surround the other city with culture and thus leads it directly in revolution

I give myself the rule, that when I want to conquer via culturebomb, I need to employ my cultural production (artists, hammer-to-culture) for minimum 3 turns before. This feature could be easily abused, when u know the mechanics.

And so in both cases (Laos -> indian Vandale, Bridgehead -> chinese Nanjing) we definitely conquer the other city peacefully. This is much more worth than a GA. For example: When I close borders with India right after, nothing can keep me from colonizing the WHOLE Indonesia alone.

We should definitely think about the strategy:
Beeline musics, meanwhile build a front city with theatres and artists, thenafter use the artist for a great work and then see every city in distance of 3 flip and the cities in distance of 4 soon flip. This is so brutal, and much more Blitzkrieg than military possible. A local war declaration without declaring war. And the other city won't do revolt or has unhappiness then. It is just flipped to our side. Crazy.

Imagine this as strategy for England for conquering europe: Build some wonders already, then build theatres and employ some artists. Thenafter just produce a Great artist and you should overtake Paris directly and KEEP all their wonders active. Completely crazy. I need to try this next game.

I would even say, theatres (and in lower impact monasteries/libraries, because they cannot employ an artist) are effectively war buildings, when u have a Great Artist in your backhand.

 

[jorissimo]

Happiness is fine, but when I need to decide whether I get more territory or get a big capital, I tend to the territory.

This is a false opposition. Happiness is important for any strategy. You need both vertical and horizontal expansion.

The Great Artist grants me 1 city.

So does a settler.

while building up military to get 1.0 ratio with China.

This is not something we do, except when preparing for a war. Otherwise defense should be managed through diplomacy.

I am not sure, whether the standardway to liberalism with GA and bulbing is the best here, or if I should go for a huge territory without competitors instead

Again a false opposition. You can do both.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

nOf course I can (and must) do both, but we need to ask, what is more urgent. For now I see, that I can play a quite strong cultural war, which can grant me dominance over asia.

So now I need to calculate:
To take currency next is an investment. Will it pay out?

For now I assume 7 cities with 2.5 each, so currency is directly ~20 sustainable per turn, which is +25%. We need 8 turns. Maths/Calender will take 12 turns. With currency before it would be 10 turns. When delaying Calender for Musics, I definitely win the cultural war in chinese mainland and will crush China only by culture.

Beelining Music is 17 turns, with Drama before 20 turns which would be 14 or 16 turns with currency. But with currency I can get money by trade, which may help with additional +10% science speedup.

All in all I think, currency is the best way to go. After currency I will look at the science progress of every civ to decide between Musics or Calendar. Musics/Drama is cultural warfare, Calender is "only" economics/commerce and maybe some whipping capacity.

OK, let's decide for 3 main goals:
1. Settle as many SE-asian spots as possible.
2. Build defence for all frontier cities (archers)
3. Research about the chinese war capacities

 

[jorissimo]

For now I assume 7 cities with 2.5 each, so currency is directly ~20 sustainable per turn, which is +25%.

But also compare it to Calendar. I don't know how many resources you have but I'm taking a conservative estimate of 3. That means 3 more pop per city, and the yields they will work. Just based on my gut feeling that's going to be more lucrative than currency. Plus the plantation yields.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 3: Expanding and the Great Library (T72 - T100, chapter 3/3)
T93:
OK, China seems so have definitely power and sits right before my Korean outpost. 3 chariots can be dangerous for only 1 archer. But China doesn't seem to plot for now...

Nice micro question: First grow, then whip or first whip, then grow?

First grow:
We have 19/24 now and grow by 9, so we have after growth 12+4=16/26, means 16/24 after whipping, means we come back to 3 directly next turn. We have additional 2

First whip:
We will have 19/22 and grow by 6, so we have 11+3=14/24 and won't reach size 3 directly next turn.

OK, so wait one turn. Then 1-whip an archer for defending North city

______________

Should Kyoto 2-whip a galley for transporting? We need one, so we can defend Korea and settle SE-asia both.

Great lib is now at 52/350 and we produce 2*17=34 per turn, finishing in 9 turns at T102.
Switching to galley is 17/50, 2-whip is 77+9/50, thus we get 36*2=72 for the great lib in 2 turns, thus 124/350. After whipping we may only produce 2*14=28 per turn. We need 226/28=8 turns, thus finishing in T103.

So we lose one turn for Great lib and 1 happiness, but get a galley. We do it! (keep in mind, Great lib is earliest finished in T107 by AI by statistics)


T95:
It seems, I made a little calculation mistake. Kyoto will finish the Great lib in T104. But we replan this. North city shall 1-whip its monument and 1-whip the granary after. We plan to defend with 3 archers, grow, build a theatre and use an artist there, and take away some juicy tiles from China.

T96:
Two archers at North City. Now we produce for our settlement attempt in SE-asia gain. Gold City won't build a library, but more archers. We remember: Every new settled city is net plus in

Arabia has Currency and 2 civs have Maths. Thus we sell rice for 1 to Arabia.

T97:
Last archer is ready for North City. Now this city will hold its ground.

We travel to our next spot, which bears elephants:

It seems, many civs have Maths now. But no civ want to trade yet... so I will go for Drama first. The most AIs have teched aestetics now, but cannot work on Writing yet.

T98:
1 settler on its way, 2 settlers were built for settling the islands. We aim for 9 cities now.

T100:
Finished Currency. Let's look, what we can get now.

Persia asked for Aestetics. I decline, but maybe we can trade?
Crab for 3 and Polytheism for 50

Germany: Rice for 2 and Mystics for 30
Russia: Clam for 2

Sounds good! 7 per turn and 80 once.

Now we settle Laos city. As comparison:

119 at 100% and 89 sustainable
=> 130 at 100% and 90 sustainable:

Maybe we should slow down our settlement attempts now a bit.

And we made some micro mistakes. Remember: Every turn check every city.

Now let's check the goals:

• Settle North City and Silver City (first settler will take North City to block China from taking it) => we settled even 2 more cities in SE-asia
• Build granaries in every city and develop the area => we have 4 cities quite strong developed with granary and plan it at the rest
• Build minimum 3 libraries (one in Kyoto) and use 'em for scientists => we have 2 and build the 3rd actually
• Reach minimum 80 sustainable => we reached 89
• Build barracks in Kyoto and in the mainland cities => Only barrack at Bridgehead
• Get 2 archers in the mainland cities each => 3 archers at Northern City, 1 at Bridgehead
• Scout China and get a power ratio of minimum 0.8 again => Still only 0.6
• Find a way to India, Persia and Arabia over the sea-side => Done, we have world trade now
• Begin to beeline to Great Library, plan National Epic for Kyoto => Great lib will be finished in T103, after that we pursue Musics (for conquest) or Calendar (for happiness)

That's quite strong. China has more food and industry, we have more commerce.

Let's overthink the tech path now:

Music gives me territory, 1 city, 1 happiness and stone after culturebombing Laos:

Calendar gives me up to 4 happiness by resources, and a big bunch of commerce.

But I can tech for Calendar after I got the free GA, right?

Next tech:

Drama -> (Maths) -> Music -> Calendar
When possible, bulb Philosophy

Next buildings:
- Frontier cities should build theatres and work artists there
- Homeland cities should build wealth
- We need some more workers to develop our new cities

Seems, we will get a Great Merchant at Kyoto. What would you sugest to do with it? Artemis is still not build and extremely far away...

Savefile is attached.

 

[jorissimo]

Seems, we will get a Great Merchant at Kyoto. What would you sugest to do with it? Artemis is still not build and extremely far away...

It might still be possible to avoid a GM with the TGL scientists.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 4: The "big" culture-bomb of SE-asia (T101 - T120, chapter 1/2)
We are leading in pursueing Culture-technologies, and we are protective, so we can go for a cultural dominance for now.

Our great possibilities are:
- Getting the Great Artist of Musics and build a decent culture-bomb at Laos to conquer the area completely
- Bulbing Philosophy to get a holy city and a religion for asia
They are unique. So we could delay Calendar for some turns for it.


Research plan:
Drama (T105)
Maths (T109)
Music (T117)
Calendar (T123)


Building goals:
- Monument, granary and theatre in North city
- Monument and theatre in Laos city => urgently needed for culturebomb
- Library in Gold City (quick)
- Lighthouse in Silver City (slow, build wealth first, then whip it with enough pop left)
- Failgold in Kyoto
We now have 136 at 100% and 105 sustainable
We won't develop the science much more, we just settle 2 more cities, and after that settling won't be profitable anymore.

T103:
Great library is ready. This is great! I take it.

Here's the state:
We could even culturebomb Northern City and get a size 9 city from China... mh...

We now have 147 at 100% and 124 sustainable.


T105:
Look! Look!

Confuzianism was already developed, 3 turns before. And Drama is done. But wait, we still have Maths on our way.

The AIs hesitated to trade it until last turn.

And.... yes!

I could befriend Ashoka by trading it. Or Persia, because Persia won't get much by aestetics.

I decide for Persia:

But before I can bulb Philosophy, I need to take Meditation and Monotheism... well... these techs are quick to develop. But it seems, I don't get the full overflow here. So I first tech Musics 1 turn, and thenafter Meditation. I don't want to trade both, because of the massive overflow bonus.

We will settle North Japan next and then the last new settlement for now is a faraway city in Oceania. Both will grant +15 directly.

Let's calculate the costs:

North Japan: 2.5 assumed distance fee
Oceania: maximum 5 assumed distance fee

We have 7 cities, so 7x7=49 counting. It 10 all-in-all, so it should be 0.2 per city, let's calculate conservative with 0.25
We will jump from 7² to 9², so it is 32*0.25=8

Our upkeep will grow by around 2.5+5+8=16 , but our commerce will grow by ~30. So we could settle even more. Let's see the sustainable after settling.

China seems to send a galley. We don't know why, but better we get up our city defence now, at homeland some cities still have no garrison...

A the chinese mainland there's a little stack with 4 chariots. Better ramp up some spears here and some walls. It seems, China plots against me. Even though there's no fist yet...

Of course we plan it in a way, we get 4 , so we can 2-whip the spears.

T106:
More military preparation. The is put into Musics, and we set to Meditation now. At 60%, so we can max out overflow.

T107:
Walls on mainland are in preparation.

China has some troops, but I should be capable for defending with 3 troops inside. But beware of catapults... Btw: Persia has 'em already.

Let's look again at the science-rating:
We now have 147 -> 175 at 100% and
124 -> 125 sustainable and 111, when I accept 10% culture rate.

No known civ has the prerequisites for Music, but 2 have Calendar. But I don't know western europe yet.


T108:
The moment is there. We will bulb Philosophy. Where will our holy city be? I hope, at a border spot... but maybe better not near China, he could get not amused by this...

It is Gold City!

Well... what to with the missionar? I don't plan to build more missionaries for now. But maybe we could befriend China the religious way?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

But also compare it to Calendar. I don't know how many resources you have but I'm taking a conservative estimate of 3. That means 3 more pop per city, and the yields they will work. Just based on my gut feeling that's going to be more lucrative than currency. Plus the plantation yields.

But calendar is no culturebomb
No I am now focussed on this. The only thing I am not sure, is where I should use it. Taking China the military way later could be hard. But taking one well-developed city now could be an idea. Maybe I should build a second Great Artist next?

It might still be possible to avoid a GM with the TGL scientists.

Could be hard:

 

[jorissimo]

I think you need to focus on one thing and go all the way for it. Taking China should be a military operation, GAs aren't cost- effective for that. So either focus on conquering China, with Engineering for instance, or focus on development and expansion by settlement, get really big and then get China later.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

I think you need to focus on one thing and go all the way for it. Taking China should be a military operation, GAs aren't cost- effective for that. So either focus on conquering China, with Engineering for instance, or focus on development and expansion by settlement, get really big and then get China later.

My focus is to conquer half of China by culture. When he declares war, he will suffer war weariness. The war can stay until I have the necessary military techs, or he gives up and gives me techs.

My focus is to expand primarely by culture and to eat the most important Chinese cities this way.

Well... I updated the posting above. Now I ask myself what to do with the taoistic missionary.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 4: The "big" culture-bomb of SE-asia (T101 - T120, chapter 2/2)

We have reached to bulb Philosophy and founded Taoism. Music is ready T111, and after that Calendar in T114. We still focus on building defence capacities against China...

T109:
We met Mali. He has Confuzianism. Maybe we can trade in future.
I need to decide, where I want to culture-bomb. It seems, China is getting more dangerous.

I can bomb in Bridgehead. This conquers complete southern China and Nanjing. In the last games Nanjing was a great production powerhouse, best suited for Hero Epic. When we overtake this city, we can build our defence quite quick. To do this we need to build a theatre and work 2 artists there (I can work 'em, because the city has no use for this plenty of food there).
But I can bomb Northern City (Korea) too. This way I get this juicy commerce-driven city Guangzhou. But this city isn't capable for big industrial efforts, it has no hills. It is merely a commerce- or GP-city.

So I would argument for Bridgehead. It is longterm the more important city of China...

Should I really use my missionary for China? OK, it isolates China for the world and could distract him. But I lose the missionary and could give him more abilities for cultural defence. But beware! I have someone, who can help me...

Calm down, Dschingis... I will come back to this thought. Let me first build up more defence capacities and prepare the culture bomb. Then China will get 2 hard attacks at 1-2 turns... muhahaha!


T110:
OK, here's Shanghai. That's interesting! Then Shanghai will get culturally captured too. That will be a slaughter... but I need to time it right, the chinese army isn't weak...

T111:
Great!

OK, both mainland cities have 3-4 units defence and walls, which should hold the neighboring army away. Bridgehead has culture and will expand in 2 turns. China could declare war then.
To come before, we give China another job to do... and sneak the Great Artist to Bridgehead...

We will have much fun together, Dschingis
And China still doesn't know about the real threat, where even 2 cities will completely collapse...

T114:
Calendar is ready. Now we will progress into bigger cities. But more important: Our Great Artist is at the point, where he will finish his Great Work, which will "convince" Shanghai and Nanjing to change the sides...

I attach two savefiles: One before and one after...

Well... something is wrong. Tis is definitely not the descibed effect in the article. But it is enough for getting Nanjing. But I need to read this article again and calculate it out.

Well... Nanjing has 50% Japanese culture now. So we progress building culture and we will conquer it peacefully.

T115:
Bridgehead took some pigs from Nanjing. Nanjing has 51% Japanese now. And Northern City captured 2 additional tiles from China: One mine, which will be useful for building a theatre next...

Now where we have conquered land in China, we will progress our southern settlement attempts. Now, where I know about this weaker effects of the "culture bomb" I would decide to go another way. But well... it is okay, we play it out.

State:
We now have 175 -> 182 at 100% and
125 -> 130 sustainable

We now focus on building samurais next.

T116:
OK, we join the club soon. But before I want to finish my attacking troop for the barb city near Singapur. Maybe the other guys get more friendly soon. I have not even one friend out there :-(

China has settled MY planned spot... Argh!

T117:
Now let's look, what's on the research table out there:

Only Russia owns Metalcasting. And russia hasn't the land for Colossus. Maybe I should give it a try? Research-wise it fits into my general strategy to go for machines first. We could need Samurais to take out China completely.

I don't really need monarchy. But I could need Construction, Monarchy or Code of Laws. But should I try to trade for all? The other civs could then resitate to trade with me in future...

Let's summarize:
We have 2 big goals, first to get Liberalism first and second to come to Samurais and finish China. When we try for both, we lose both.
Well, I like territory over pure technology, and China is quite juicy and should be underdeveloped soon. So I would assume, I can overrun 'em. So my priority is to build a formidable attack and not going for Liberalism.

We did some micro to do 2 things:
1. Preparing another settlement
2. Preparing the conquest of the barb city near Singapur.

Now we can switch to buddhism.

T118:
China asked something. We say "Yes". We want some peacetime. Maybe Nanjing flips meanwhile.

A great scientist was born in Kyoto. Despite there is my Great Lib, I build an academy at bridgehead. We need culture, and Bridgehead has 5 food resources and this is a great GP farm.

A remark: The world seems to hate Dschingis. And now they hate me, cause I bribed him for war with China... argh!

T119:
Academy built in Bridgehead. I now switch to buddhism.

T120:
OK, it is 125AD and we have a capital Size 10 next turn. Now we have the problem, that we lack in workers. We had long time easy to develop land, and now we need urgently more. So we have only 3 so far. After our cities have grown (on developed tiles!) we will build 2 more workers and develop the other tiles.

At last we got Construction and 80 for Drama and Literature from Mansa.

I attach a save file. This part of the story is over.

 

[jorissimo]

Well... something is wrong. Tis is definitely not the descibed effect in the article. But it is enough for getting Nanjing. But I need to read this article again and calculate it out.

Doesn't surprise me. You were very optimistic about flipping a bunch of cities. Do you now see there were better uses for the GA?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Doesn't surprise me. You were very optimistic about flipping a bunch of cities. Do you now see there were better uses for the GA?

Definitely. My strategy based on wrong knowledge of the game rules. Well, okay, it is more fairer, when the bomb is not that huge, but the article was definitely misleading.

I will get Nanjing for sure, but when I had used my science for Samurai and catas instead, I were on another position now. For future I remember that I shouldn't be naive about a "short" cultural attack. China was hitten, but it wasn't that big I hoped it would.

With this knowledge I would approached the game by pursuing Mausoleum instead and when I got the GA, I had used it for a Great Age then.

Well... okay, now it is passed. My game is not bad, by score I am 3rd and I press China. He loses tiles now and then, and has one city, where my culture is dominant, while I am still producing more culture (Bridgehead up to 19 per turn, maybe we can grow to more than 25 and Northern City 10 per turn and we could grow to 14 easily). And I am even more progressed in military technology.