[BTS] Earth 18 civs - How to Win (Monarch-Emperor) : 4th game - Japan (Immortal :eek: ) - many calculations, I would appreciate replays from the pros

[sylvanllewelyn]

Modifiers:
- No huts (we cannot delete the predefined huts, because they are coded in scenario)

I attached the WorldBuilder map with huts removed.

T0:
We settle 1S from normal spot.

No! Do this instead.

Spoiler :

Two chariots. One has combat 1 and medic, 6 experience. With great general later, get medic III and morale. The other has 5 experience, flanking I and sentry. They will lead the horde to conquer the world later.

We go for domination or space-ship victory only.

You can gift cities and resources to Japan for open borders. This gives you more foreign trade routes.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 5: Winning Liberalism und structuring (T150 - T180)

Strategic Analysis

We have settled nearly every spot, which helps our efforts now. There is only one spot left in the Chinese sea, we want to take:

We have every buildiging necessary to get full advantage from Golden Age (Mausoleum, NE) Our direct neighbors are strict behind in tech. Now it's time to go to war again. We can trade for Feudalism with Persia or Mansa (better Persia to keep tech lead).

But I am not sure, whether I should start the GA right now or later., after we have grown a bit more.

Let's think about it:
To switch now gives me an overall boost, including a massive commerce boost, which helps for Taj Mahal later. I need 9 turns 100% slider now for Education. So I would think optimistically that I have Lib at the end of the 12 turns without any bulb needed. Additionally I can switch to Vassalage without a turn cost. The generated GPP may be smaller than when I do it later, but I get 10 per turn for saving unit upkeep. Additionally I can build up my military stronger and can build longbows for defence.

Well. I do it soon! But before my cities, who are planned as GPP generators will grow one size level:

____________________________

Goals until T165 (1100AD):
- Researched Liberalism and got Nationalism
- Begin to build the Taj Mahal
- Settle the spot at the Chinese sea
- Build some military, primarely for defence
_____________________________

T149:
We traded Feudalism for Paper and Drama with Persia:

T151:
Start the Golden Age.

T153:
China peace-vassals to Russia... OK, I should get my ambitions towards Japan now.

T162:
We built up peaceful and are right at the end of the GA and right before Lib. We got 3 scientists from it, built 2 academies at our strongest commerce-cities in China. This turn traded Compass with England against Music and Optics with Mansa against Philosophy.

This is a clear tech lead now:

Satsuna will soon peaceful flip:

We look at the demographics, when the GA is over.

T163:

We could even take Astronomy. But we risk getting Taj Mahal, so I decide for Nationalism. Our goals are in our direct area, not around the world. We can colonize America later, when Japan is beaten up.

T164:
Our first Caravel is ready. Let's find America!

Now, let's come to the demographics:

So technological lead should be safe now. We lack a bit in army. And we haven't spreaded Judaism as religion enough. Even though we were elected for Pope:

The next turns I need to focus on structuring:
- Build 8 courthouses for moving capital to Peking and make use of buerocracy
Edit: I misconcepted the Palace with the Forbidden Palace, we don't need the courthouses
- Build universities in every science-heavy city, minimum 8 for Oxford
- Spread Judaism as much as possible, especially near border cities (we have Sixteenian and should use it)
- Dedicate 4 cities as military-producers and come back to Top3 in military

But still I don't know where to place the Hero Epic...Peking would be best suited as capital and with buerocratic, but it is my wonder-center too. The other cities are too small for a good Hero Epic. Maybe my Moai-City?

T173:
We are right before Taj Mahal and no competitor has Nationalism already. We delay it for now to build the Palace in Peking. Actually we are building our navy, while building more units.

T178:
2 turns of GA are away, but now we go into Representation, Buerocracy, Caste and Pacifism. Meanwhile we only produce the troops we have already begun with and produce research after that. We are now rank 3 in military.

Wow, that costs us +45 military upkeep now.

__________________________

Part 6: Expanding by war (T180 - T230)

T180:
We met the 3 american civs. They sold us their maps, and with Mansas map we now proved, that earth is round.

We start the war now, before he gets Civil Service:

T183:
Kyoto is quite nice. Academy and 2 settled superspecialists:

And we destroyed his complete fleet. Now the rest will be easy.

T184:
I realized, I can sell my map to everyone. Gave me around 1.2k gold. Ka-Ching!

T186:
Satsuna was a bit expensive. I lost a treb and 2 knights for it. It is an okay city. Commerce-driven, definitely.

T187:
What a spam! But I got only Great Scientists and Great Merchants. I save them for the later GAs, and reserve one merchant for Sushi or Cereals.
The Great Merchant is from winning the tech race for Economics. Now we use our last round in Ga for going into Free Market. Ka-Ching!

I choose organized religion. My army may be weaker, but now the priority is to build banks, universities, Oxford and Wall Street.

T192:
The last Japanese city is fallen. Right before replaceable parts.

Our project to build universities, jails and banks as often as possible progresses. Even though it delays my unit production, it helps me to get known more about my competitors. I must admit, I love jails. Here in this game I have 88 by jails, specialists and courthouses.

We now plan to conquer america, which should be a walk in the park. For this we change our espionage towards these 3.
We will declare war to Roosevelt first. He seems to have the tendency to vassal himself, on the contrary to Monte. And he could be a good lategame-partner. We will see, if I kill him off or vassal him.

In Asia we have seen, Ashoka conquers Oceania. He is similar developed military and similar strong, so attacking him now could be fruitless. But I should oversee his development and maybe I get him, when oil ships are available.

Tech-wise I see these priorities:
1. Replaceable parts
2. Democracy => Statue of Liberty (should take 12-14 turns)
3. Rifleman
4. Sids Sushi

T197:
Russia vassaled Mali now and still has the fist.

T201:
Russia has many elephants and knights near my front and presses me to give resources. Although we are in positive relationship... better watch out now.

T205:
Got a Great Engineer. Now everything is prepared to found 2 great companies.

T210:
We conquered a city from America. But, we don't have luck here: Roosevelt capitulated against Monte directly after.

T212:
Finished the Statue of Liberty! Yea!

T214:
Monte declared war to me. I have one sigle city in america against 3 civs... ups!

T219:
The Russians finally declared war... damned backstabber. But China was still their vassal. So I will use my time to kick China out of my land. Even when I lose a city in the north,

T225:
The Russians lost their best stack. I asked India to help. We now have a world war. In america and in asia it is burning.

T226:
Got Nanching, the new Chinese capital. It is an espionage center:

Now it's time to wipe China off.

T228:
Founded Mining Inc. But Sids Sushi will be lost to France. But maybe I can work with Cereals, when I get the corn of the american continent?


T230:
China is dead. 2 cities were conquered by me, the last one by my companion, India. I made peace with Russia to send my troops to america.

Final Demographics:

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

I attached the WorldBuilder map with huts removed.

Thank you. So I can use this next game, when possible

No! Do this instead.

Spoiler :

Two chariots. One has combat 1 and medic, 6 experience. With great general later, get medic III and morale. The other has 5 experience, flanking I and sentry. They will lead the horde to conquer the world later.
View attachment 737068

That is essentially a one-city-chariot-rush, right?

Yea, from your screenshots it seems to be more effective. I had my problems and wiped out China only very late. But would that work with te normal settings, where the AIs have archery and some archers already? You really only used 2 chariots for this?

You can gift cities and resources to Japan for open borders. This gives you more foreign trade routes.

Ah, yes. Gifting is a skill I haven't developed already. How does it work here? Would you build a city at Korea and gift it or send some resources, which Toku never asked for? You know a strategy article about gifting?

Maybe I should replay this start after the actual round... thank you!

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 7: Conquering america (T230 - T270)

Strategic analysis

We have 3 major powers in this game:

Mongolia: Biggest size, best eco, best technology and best military
India: Very big, but much undeveloped land, big growth, strong technology, but whithout rifles
Russia: Smaller, some city cites are really weak, rather undeveloped, had the best military before it declares war to me

Additionally we have the French, which are culturally a supermight and the Persians, which are just big, but not really developed.

I brought India and Russia to war together, so I can concentrate on the american continent now.

Big late-game-advantages:
- Mausoleum
- Statue of liberty
- Earth-rounded
- Mining Inc.
- Sixteenian Chapel for border-control

Our empire:

And our new area in America, where we will send some more troops in ~8 rounds in:

Next goals until T250:
1. Develop Assembly Line
2. Bring the army, which conquered China to america
3. Spread Mining Inc to every city
4. Scout the Romans and French to decide if we can conquer 'em
(they are at war with Egypt, and I like Egypt, bin cannot send 'em my Iron anymore)

T230:
We switched back to Buerocracy.

T232:
Ouch! Cathy likes to break her eco. The city of Heliopolis is rather bad placed for Russia, but she wants to defend it.

T234:
Scouting results: Julius has huge amounts of grenadiers, which make it hard to overtake him. But Louis has only cannons, cuirs and longbows. When Assembly Line is ready, I will modernize and go for the French.

T242:
Next aim is Alex. He has 3 enemies around him. But he is no really weak. Maybe I can vassal him. Cathy and Ashoka made peace again, so now Cathy is dangerous again. But Cathy is actually at war with Rome and the French. I hope, the wars are not decided that quick, because I lack in troops in asia and my cities are building productio infrastructure now. Mining works in 10 cities now, from 21 in asia.

Peking builds the Pentagon, and the other old Chinese cities begin to conquer back the land from Ashoka by culture:

We made some progress in america. MayI had better first conquered America instead of the Aztecs, but now I am marching onto their capital.

Meanwhile in europe:

This small troop may be a gamble. But it is more than Alex has as tech. And his cities are not really full garrisoned. I only need one city now so I can upgrade my rifleman.

T249:
Another city in america is fallen, and our troops are standing right before the aztekian capital:

In europe I got Sparta. Theres an interesting wonder inside, and generally Alex has some interesting wonders, but I do't want to take this war any loger. Alex would capitulate, and I accept it.

T250:
It is a pity, it is not positioned at the coast, +6XP are yummi

Now upgrading and then the rest of Monte. We won't vassal him, we kick him completely.

We could found Sids Sushi, because the French had no interest in it. Let's spread it now.

We set our research slider to 0% now to build.

Next aim should be Russia. It has problems with the masses of grenades from Rome, and still has only musceteers. No chance against our Infanterists.

The AI is really not that intelligent:

T253:
Finished Pentagon. Another city fallen in america. A small but dangerous troop is now in the east of Russia, a smaller in the south. Let's make war to this *****. We play sme little turns more.

T258:
Another 4 cities are conquered, 2 in america, 2 in Russia.

T262:
Another 1 in america, 3 in Russia. Moscow is looking great, this is +10 and +10 XP per unit.

T267:
The war weariness because of the war against America, Aztecs and Russia same time reaches crazy numbers:

America capitulates:

T271:
America is free now, the Aztecs vanished from history.

Russia has only 1 city in africa left, which is conquered in ~6 turns. Next I should overtake Persia and the Inca. Our companies and judaism spreads into north america meanwhile.

We stop here now. This game can easily be won. I have the tech lead. Ashoka and Lizzy may have Electricity, but not steel already, so they won't be first at tanks. Conquering Ashoka should be possible, but not necessary now. He has no Oil yet. Conquering and vassaling Persia and the Inca could be a goal for the next 20 turns, while we work on tanks.

Lessons learned:
- Catherine is a crazy backstabber and should be defeated as soon as possible or send to another civ for warring
- Corporations give a crazy **** amount of money and even help to make cities in impossible areas (like deep in tundra) effective
- Some AIs (like Louis) could build the corporation, but doesn't do it. So it may be possible to tech it, even when the other civs have the tech already
- America is best conquered from the seaside. You should calculate every moment, that the civs vassal each other and then u have 2 enemies. Seaside is much safer. Fregates help to destroy city defenses quickly.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

That is essentially a one-city-chariot-rush, right?

The standard strategy is two-city chariot rush because horses are usually somewhere else. I believe Genghis Khan has the fastest chariot rush out of all 52 leaders.

We could have first settled the spot where Guangzhou was in your game. But Earth18 does not give the AI starting archers. I wanted to attack before China has archers and Beijing has 40% culture defense.

Your decision to research horseback riding using a gold tile is a standard strategy for more desperate maps and higher difficulties. We didn't need to, and the gold was in a bad place.

Yea, from your screenshots it seems to be more effective. I had my problems and wiped out China only very late. But would that work with te normal settings, where the AIs have archery and some archers already? You really only used 2 chariots for this?

I attacked with 3 chariots. The first one died attacking the warrior defending Beijing. No matter the combat results, I would train a few more chariots to explore and to fight barbarians.

I disagree with your decision to raze Shanghai. Sometimes, having more cities city earlier is better than having a better-placed city later. Shanghai is an excellent city and not all cities need to be coastal.

Ah, yes. Gifting is a skill I haven't developed already. How does it work here? Would you build a city at Korea and gift it or send some resources, which Toku never asked for? You know a strategy article about gifting?

For AI with only 1 or 2 cities (less than 3), they will accept any gifted city, even very far away. No 10 tile distance limit.

I waited for "+1 years of peace" and writing. Then I settled a city 4 tiles West of the starting capital, the desert with fresh water, 1 tile SouthEast of the sheep. I gifted it to Tokugawa for "+4". The relationship went to "pleased" and then they agreed to open borders. After sailing, I got 3-commerce foreign trade routes with them.

Later on, I used a great scientist to lightbulb 'mathematics' and then took 'calendar' with 'the Oracle'. Then I stopped playing.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I am generally strong until Medieval Era and weaker in more modern Eras.

Variant A: One of the easier civs (all except the latter mentioned)
- Emperor difficulty
- Settle right in place

Variant B: Middlehard civ (Spain, Mongolian, Aztecs, Americans)
- Emperor difficulty
- We may retry to play with a better starting position

Variant C: Hard civ (Mali, Inca)
- Monarch difficulty
- We may choose starting position

____________________

5. Minimum 150 turns played

I think the map is meant to "settle right in place". We are role-playing history, right?

When I have time, I would like to try Americans on deity difficulty, settle in place. I am not sure if I can do it.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

I think the map is meant to "settle right in place". We are role-playing history, right?

When I have time, I would like to try Americans on deity difficulty, settle in place. I am not sure if I can do it.

I know, but in some cases the starting position is not ideal. SIP for Madrid for example is extremely crappy, blocking sea food and 2 good city cites. If the authors would want the SIP, they would have made the starting positions or the map in a slightly other way. So personally I am deliberate to correct the most obvious placing mistakes.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

The standard strategy is two-city chariot rush because horses are usually somewhere else. I believe Genghis Khan has the fastest chariot rush out of all 52 leaders.

We could have first settled the spot where Guangzhou was in your game. But Earth18 does not give the AI starting archers. I wanted to attack before China has archers and Beijing has 40% culture defense.

Your decision to research horseback riding using a gold tile is a standard strategy for more desperate maps and higher difficulties. We didn't need to, and the gold was in a bad place.

I attacked with 3 chariots. The first one died attacking the warrior defending Beijing. No matter the combat results, I would train a few more chariots to explore and to fight barbarians.

Yea, personally I only want to use strategies, which work in higher difficulties and in normal games too. So I want to play like the AI has archery already, not preparing a rush, which wouldn't work with archery. For example as America I wouldn't warrior-rush Monte.

I must admit I never did a chariot-rush yet. I see chariots primarely as support units and as effective defence against axes. And I don't think a chariot-rush would work in a normal Immortal game.

I disagree with your decision to raze Shanghai. Sometimes, having more cities city earlier is better than having a better-placed city later. Shanghai is an excellent city and not all cities need to be coastal.

Mh... I need to think about. I lost several turns, but got a great longterm-spot with good commerce, which uses the fish optimally. So it is a decision about short-term vs. long-term. In fact in late-game the city had my Wall Street and produces a decent amount of great merchants.

For AI with only 1 or 2 cities (less than 3), they will accept any gifted city, even very far away. No 10 tile distance limit.

I waited for "+1 years of peace" and writing. Then I settled a city 4 tiles West of the starting capital, the desert with fresh water, 1 tile SouthEast of the sheep. I gifted it to Tokugawa for "+4". The relationship went to "pleased" and then they agreed to open borders. After sailing, I got 3-commerce foreign trade routes with them.

Later on, I used a great scientist to lightbulb 'mathematics' and then took 'calendar' with 'the Oracle'. Then I stopped playing.

That's an interesting plan. Even though it seems a bit like abuse of bad AI-decision-making. I would rather gift Toku a city in korea, which is well-placed, so I can conquer it later. But the investment should be quite good: This is all-in-all 2x2+1x1 =5 long-term for a settler and a nice city to overtake later on. But personally there's one point,because of which I would hesitate: Toku then gets known of the other civs, which makes declaring war a diplomatic problem with some civs. In my game declaring war to Toku wasunimportant, because Toku was unknown for the most. So letting him isolate may be not efficient in trade, but very efficient in diplomatic terms.

With sailing I had trade contact to India and the rest easily. Took longer, but maybe more worthy than 5 early on?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Third Game: India, Ashoka

Difficulty: Emperor

Personal goals:
1. Optimizing espionage: In my last game I played this rather uncontrolled, the points were going to neighbors I wasn't really interested and I spent too many to some neighbors. In this game I want to concentrate on this aspect of game more.
2. At T100 I want to have again 5+ cities, 120+ at 100% slider, and around 137 commerce, 51 hammers, 73 food. Because mongolia has a weaker start, I should rise over this.
3. I want reliable win the race for Mausoleum and Liberalism
4. I want to dominate the world again lately at T250


Strategic analysis

Specials:
Our special unit is a pure economical one now, and the most important advantage is that we can run into a forest or onto a hill and build directly, which is 1 turn saved. We can play much more effective now.

Our special building is a special jail with 2 happy face, somethin which I build in the most games primarely for the espionage points, so we have +2 happiness for free.

Traits:
Spiritual: This makes us more flexible and let us change civics more often. I am not experienced with this.
Organized: Cheaper Lighthouses (maybe for GLH) and courthouses and lower upkeep

Behavior towards our Neighbors:
- Persia to the west could be an easy prey after getting copper for spears; best attack when Construction is developed; we attack with Elephants and catas then
- China to the east could give us some problems, when it can develop freely. We must attack 'em soon, when mongolia attacks too.
- We will spread around the Indian subcontinent first, thenafter to Persia along the seaside and then to Oceania/australia or China-heartland. We won't go for an early war, concentrate on economy and start warring with Construction

Starting:
Because it is an relatively easy civ, we settle in place

Delhi is well-suited for a GP-farm, but lacks in hammers. We need to whip regularly or build the eco based on caste.
Because of our better worker we can develop the tiles every round and don't need turns to build roads meanwhile. This makes is possible to tech

Agriculture -> Hunting -> Wheel -> AH -> Pottery

Means: We don't need to develop the cows directly.

First goal should be to find another city spot, maybe in the south, which shares the wheat and maybe lies at the coast and has hammers. There are potential city spots in the west nearby the river (1N or 1W of our warrior), where we can build up cottages.

Idea:
What about building a settler directly, settling 3W or 4W1S of Delhi and building 2 workers in both cities? This takes 40 turns, so Wheel, Agriculture and Pottery is ready when the workers are ready. We could directly cottage the floodplain and improve the land with double speed. Let's simulate both versions to learn about it.

Edit: Thought about this: Doing so delays warrior and is dangerous in terms of barbarians. Especially at higher difficulties I would definitely lose. This strategy is only effective for crowded starts, where no barbs are present or starts on an island or an peninsula, which is quite safe (like: One connection, which is a wooded hill)

________________________

Part One: Early micromanagement and scouting (T0 - 35)

T1:

Research:
We have: Mystics and Mining
Both are not really useful here, and cheap. I will mine very late, don't need BW as soon and I don't want to found a religion, because we lack commerce in our capital. We could need AH and BW mainly to know, where horses and copper are to ot accidently settle on 'em. The river in the west is a great cottage spot, I could even cottage the sugar. So early Pottery seems to be a good idea. We go for Agri first and then we need to decide, whether we go for Wheel/Pottery, for Hunting or for AH. Each choice may be reasonable.

Scouting:
We first scout the west for contact to Persia, thenafter the indian peninsula, getting known to China, Japan and Mongolia. This adds research bonus to Agri (Persia), Hunting (Persia), Wheel (maybe Mongolia/Japan, if reached early enough) and Fishing/Sailing (Japan). Later on we will make our way to europe to get known to the others.

Building:
Standard way: Worker, Warrior, Settler.
This takes ~40 turns, while we could have AH already to get known about horses and improve the cows.

T2:
Met Persia. My beaker count rises 11 -> 22, even though I produce only 10. Thank you, Persia! Now we turn to the east.

Scout will turn 1E, cause we defog the sea area anyway and a seafood on the undiscoverable 2S1W isn't enough to settle on the jungle.

T10:
Agriculture is ready. Not what about Hunting vs. Wheel vs. AH?

Wheel: Can connect cities, but I wouldn't know,whether I settle accidently on horses... Pottery seems to be long-term strong, but needs a second city before, so it is not really important until T40 (and it needs 20 turns to develop). NO!

Hunting: Let me improve the elephants, which is rather weak, but saves me some turns in AH. I need ~11 instead of 14 turns. Additionally I can build scouts for fogbusting and finding the european civs, which makes cash in form of saved beakers. AH needs 180/1.4=129

AH: Let me improve the cows soon, which are the best tiles for building the settler. AH needed 180/1.2=150

Let's calculate:

Turn	Variant A: Hunting -> AH	Variant B: AH -> Wheel
15	Worker ready	Worker ready
17	Hunting ready
20	Ricefarm ready City is 15/22, produces 5	Ricefarm ready City is 15/22, produces 5
22	Citysize 2 with 2/24, work cows City produces 6	Citysize: 2 with 2/24, work cows City produces 6
23		AH ready
25	Wheatfarm ready City is 20/24, produces 7	Wheatfarm ready City is 20/24, produces 7
26	Citysize 3 with 3/26, work cows City produces 8 , 2 Switches to settler	Citysize 3 with 3/26, work cows City produces 8 , 2 Switches to settler
27	AH ready Settler 10/100 City produces 8 , 2	Grassland Pasture ready Settler 10/100 City produces 9 , 4
30	Settler: 40/100 Second Wheatfarm ready City produces 9 , 2	Settler: 49/100
32	Settler: 62/100 City produces 9 , 2	Settler: 75/100 Second Pasture ready City produces 8 , 6 Wheel ready
34	Settler: 84/100 Plain cows ready City produces 8 , 5	Settler finished
36	Settler finished Wheel ready	2nd city starts, works 1 time floodplan, thenafter the desert-wheat

I think, both plans work out similar. Delaying hunting may bring some beakers by other known civs and getting slightly earlier open borders, while going directly for hunting brings quicker known other civs and delaying open borders. It is not really to calculate, which is better. A second city brings some beaker directly, and connecting both even more, building cottages on floodplains too. This is around 1-2 for each turn, which we come to it earlier.

So I would assume, going directly to AH is no problem, and is more solid in terms of great worked tiles.

We decide for AH now.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

First try: Go scouting east like planned

T19:
It works like planned so far. Rice farm is ready. We didn't come to know the other asian civs. Maybe going into the west would had been more efficient?

Remark: Tried it out, going west gave me contact to Freddy and Arabia, and maybe getting known to Greek, Roman, Russia and Egypt soon. But I would have no plan where to settle in india. So it's again 1 up, 1 down...

Here's the settlement plan:

T26:
I thought, I may had done a little mistake: I needed to switch to the elephants with finished wheat farm to make the city grow to size 3 same moment, when warrior is ready. But every way to do it is finished in T26.

We now go for Wheel -> Pottery to make use of the floodplain and get a good 2nd city

T28:
Pasture is ready, missed my calculation by 1 turn. And I miscalculated massively in terms of China:

Japan isn't here yet, so I meet only 2 of 3 civs!

Let's mark the tech at T30: Wheel 74/108

Because I am searching for an well-thought micromanaging way in getting known to other civs, I restart this to compare. I won't use any map knowledge in my second try, because I settle like planned 3W of my capital after developing AH (and seeing, that there are no horses).

 

[jorissimo]

Here's the settlement plan:

As a rule, try to always have a strong food resource in the first ring. For that reason, the spot labeled great spot should be 1NE on the hill and prioritized. Var A/B should go 1NE of Var A right in the middle of those calendar resources, but should be settled only after IW or even Calendar.

Edit: I would settle western Var B first as it it can share 2 food resources with the cap.

Edit 2: another decent spot is 3S of Delhi as it can also share 2 resources and has some cottageable riverside. Early on, 2 cottages per city is a good rule. Delay jungle settles for as long as possible/desirable.

 

[jorissimo]

Btw, for those who have played RFC, India can be quite triggering for the barb war elephants that spawn on the jungle tiles in the middle of your culture, and jungle can only be removed at Biology

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Second try: Go scouting west like planned

T2:
Met Persia again.

Because we have seen Persia this early means, we have no real chance for settling the jungle west of our warrior. And would we do, Persia would maybe declare war early, which I will lose definitely.

That's why we move our warrior NOT 1W to scout the see, but 1NW.

T5:
North or west?
North: Russia, Gernany, Greek, Rome, maybe Mongolia, then turning to asia, cause going south is a one-way
West: Arabia, Egypt, Greek, Rome, then north to Germany, Russia and asia

So going west is better

T11: Germany
T12: Arabia
T14: Rome
T18: Egypt

T19:
It works like planned so far. Rice farm is ready.
Contrary to the first attempt we have no settlement plan yet.

T26:
Same like above: We now go for Wheel -> Pottery to make use of the floodplain and get a good 2nd city

T27:
We met the Greek. Warrior is ready, city now works on settler.
We work like planned and think about settling Var A, but we should check another tile first:

T29:
We met Russia now.
Pasture is ready, we work the plain cows for 1 turn before we go for the desert wheat. Our Check! spot is definitely weak. And there were panthers, which had barely killed my warrior. He has only 0.2 left...

We try to find the French before going to asia.

T30:
We lost our warrior to some panthers. Learning: The jungle is a dangerous space!

Now let's compare wit our first attempt: Wheel 74/108
That's the same like above!

Only 2 of the civs have starting tech wheel, but no change is a bit low... maybe the impact is not that big than I thought?

Let's compare the other techs:

Technology	Remaining turns going east (meet only China)	Remaining turns going west (meet many)
Wheel (rest to do)	3	3
Fishing	6	6
Hunting	6	6
Archery	9	9
Pottery	11	11

OK, that's surprising. So there's no real advantage in meeting many other civs early...

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

As a rule, try to always have a strong food resource in the first ring. For that reason, the spot labeled great spot should be 1NE on the hill and prioritized. Var A/B should go 1NE of Var A right in the middle of those calendar resources, but should be settled only after IW or even Calendar.

Yea, thanks. The spots are not really fixed, but assumptions for first. It depends on various things. Your plan sounds reasonable. So India will stay small and needs to build many workers and get IW soon.

Edit: I would settle western Var B first as it it can share 2 food resources with the cap.

Edit 2: another decent spot is 3S of Delhi as it can also share 2 resources and has some cottageable riverside. Early on, 2 cottages per city is a good rule. Delay jungle settles for as long as possible/desirable.

Yea, based on my research in the west I definitely go for a second city 3W of Delhi.
I haven't seen the spot 3S of Delhi, which is definitely reasonable. As far as I have seen we would have a hole in our empire, when we don't settle this.

Personally I think about 3S1E of Delhi. It shares even 3 food and bridges to the south better. Then the "Great spot" needs to stay. But I would stay nevertheless, because when I move the "Great spot" elsewhere, I would not have the hill and thus lack in hammers there. Thus Var A in the east must stay.

But when I think about, planning the city at the spot you suggested gives me the possibility to build levee in this city and connect it easier with sailing...

Well... that's hard to prioritize. Maybe you can share me some of your deeper thoughts about this placement topic? E.g. do you plan your settlements with a view to levees? Or is it too far away?

Btw, for those who have played RFC, India can be quite triggering for the barb war elephants that spawn on the jungle tiles in the middle of your culture, and jungle can only be removed at Biology

Interesting!

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Earth18 map doesn't have a lot of good land. The best option for most civilizations is early aggression. Probably only Inca and China should be played peacefully.

For randomly generated maps, there is a higher chance that you get a map where building up peacefully for awhile is the best strategy.

Chariot rushes work up to immortal difficulty. But having horses does not automatically mean that it is a good idea to attack someone early. For most maps, there are better things to do. Earth18-Mongolia has no choice because there are no viable expansion spots.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part Two: Building an effective small settlement (T36 - 54)

T36:
Like planned we settled the second spot and work the desert wheat. Delhi will grow to size 4 and then build another worker. Meanwhile a new warrior should be ready.

Let's calculate this:
15 needed, 8 produced, so when we grow, we need 7 instead of 4 in 1 turn. This can be made by not using rice but instead the forest. Or it can be made, when we change the wheat to the elephants, which gives us +1-3 per turn. When I do this once, it doesn't make a difference in growth, but it makes it possible to get the warrior without changing away the rice. This keeps me 4 1 , which is 1, 1 more. Warrior will be ready 1 turn after city growth.

T39:
Let's progress scouting and fogbusting the indian peninsula to make a map of the potential city spots and stop barbarians. We don't grow to size 5 now, because we need a worker more urgently. We need to develop first Pottery and thenafter Hunting.

We have a normal 3rd world country now:

Let's change it. We need to find our 3rd city spot.

T44:
Pottery and second worker is ready. Now let's cottage the important tiles. Next is Hunting, thenafter BW.

I have seen: I can make it more efficient, when Bombay works the cows and Delhi the wheat instead. I need the warrior soon.

T46:
FP ist cottaged, now we cottage the sugar. Delhi builds the next settler.

Our scouting of the other civs brought us 19 instead of 17 in Hunting.

T47:
First worker runs from sugar to elephants an develops the tile. Second runs from PH to sugar and develops it. I like these quick workers, really.

It's time to decide, where our third city should go:

Available are spots A,B,C.

B would be perfect to delete the desert tile, but it blocks away 2 potential locations, but it could many, many river tiles.
C would block one location. A is the "safe one", blocks nothing, but the spot is not really good at all.
The both interesting locations in SE are similar. The NE one has nearly no , the SW one can build a mine. At best I scout NE of my warrior and send another worker to the westcoast to see what's there.

I need to beware about the barb here. Good, that I prepared enough warriors for myself...
Wen there is no copper nearby, I need to develop archery urgently.

T50:
We connected the elephants and cottaged the sugar. Now our land is quite well developed:

When both cities grow again, we may have a problem, so maybe Writing is a good choice to build an early library in Delhi to make use of the food.

We scouted a bit more:

Settler is ready in 3 turns. I could speedup to 2 turns, but this would delay the monument in Bombay and I would had lesser overflow in Delhi. The overflow converts into , so starting the granary would be delayed. Or maybe starting a third worker. The 3rd city will need some work and a monument to be effective. That's not impossible, but it needs some time.

T51:
I lack in technology, I know. I should get known more civs.

But demographics is not that bad now:

Looking to our ratio with Persia, Persia could be the number 1. We should better build archers soon.

I know, I wanted to set my espionage accordingly. I forgot again about it.

Egypt build the Great Wall.

T52:
OK, we now know enough about the indian peninsula to make a choice:

These combinations are available:
B-S2-E1
B-S2-E2
A-S1-E1
A-S2-E1
A-S2-E2
C-S1-E1

Arguments:
- S1 seems to be a bit better than S2 longterm, because at the hill I could run a mine to get some , while S1 has no real production
- E2 seems to be a bit stronger than E1. I can build levees later in E2, but not in E1, which gives me additional 8-9 base
- With C chosen I am limited to only one combination. I don't know, if there is Iron anywhere. This could limit me and may force me to accept a bad choice. Additionally I have too much jungle and cannot connect the tiles near the westcoast. So I would dismiss it.
- A has only 3 river-grassland tiles, but doesn't make problems with later position choices
- B deletes the worst tile and can develop some tiles with other cities, and has 3 mines, which make it possibly a strong production city, but blocks the S1 location

Am I flexible: What happens, when Iron appears on S2 ?
I could settle directly on the elephants or on the sugar, which blocks E1.

T53:
The settler is ready and the moment of choice has come:

I have the feeling, that the combination B-S2-E2 is the best. At the westcoast I tend to settle the more souther location.
I connected B already.

Monument in Bombay is ready, now we workers there and barracks at Delhi (whip defenders, if necessary).

T54:
Tried to scout east. A bear in the jungle?! Let's see, what will happen. We are specialized on forests and there's a river.
Remark: The bear hesitated to attack.

Now, that's my India:

We could open borders with Persia, but without Sailing we cannot connect. Maybe we can build a road there. It is 8 workerturns invest and can give 3 for both Persia and me. But I feel, improving my own country has priority.

I see, we can make BW be ready one turn earlier. I will do it.

Let's look at the overall statistics:

 

[soundjata]

I like S2 one tile north (on the ivory)
The improved ivory is a mediocre tile anyways. (2f2h1c)

You don't know fishing yet do you?

Be careful on your fogbusting.
There could be barbs spawning on the S1 and S2 spots (for example) right now

 

[jorissimo]

I would not have the hill and thus lack in hammers there. Thus Var A in the east must stay.

Green mines aren't really important generally, and this case you get some hammers from the cow and the ivory. But hammers are not a key criteria for city placement. Food is king.

But when I think about, planning the city at the spot you suggested gives me the possibility to build levee in this city and connect it easier with sailing...

I didn't consider that, early benefit trumps late game advantage. I chose it because it brings both food resis into the first ring.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 3: Finding a defence concept against Persia (T55 - 72)

T56:
Met China. We have no Copper... that's scary. So we need to build our defences on archers, which are easy prey for the persian immortals... or we tech for iron, but without knowledge, where iron is located, this isn't a good idea. So no we need to do 2 things:

1. Get archers
2. Make our cities more profitable in terms of to develop Ironworking

T57:
We scouted the South:

As long as it is peaceful, we can prepare...

T63:
This is something I would regularly never do. I built a cottage on plains to have one more hammer and get commerce one turn earlier. I need hammers and commerce so badly with these scary neighbor...

8 turns until we have IW. One of our workers died in China against a bear. This holds Upkeep low. But still my power graph is too low.
First we go archer, then we prepare a settler, in case that we need to settle the iron spot as quick as possible...

T64:
Persia asked for open borders. I said "No"

T69:
In case, iron appears nearby, a first mine is ready. We switch for building the monument.in the southern city.

T71:
The classical era begins. And I see our iron. Now we can build spearmen and defend against persia. I will go for sailing now and scout the seaway to arabia, egypt and china/japan.

A fourth city will be built now at the SE spot. It's purpose is mainly to get more commerce. We now go for Sailing and beeline thenafter for Calendar.
For this we need Fishing, where we can produce overflow beakers.

T72:
We got this far now. Delhi whipped a granary now. After fishing we maybe go for Writing before Sailing:

Correction, thanks to soundjata.

Persia still not plots, so I have some turns for myself. Now I can open borders

Next goals until T90:
1. Tech Fishing -> Writing (for libraries) -> Sailing -> Maths -> Calendar
2. Connect the iron and build 3 spears in barrack-towns as defence
3. Library at Delhi, run 2 scientists; start a library in our new city
4. Granaries in every city
5. Build 2 more workers
6. Improve the country: destroy the jungle and build greenland riverside cottages instead
7. Find a way to China, Persia and Arabia by sea
8. Contact Mongolians, Japanese, Spain, England and maybe Mali (after contact delete the unit to save upkeep costs)

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Earth18 map doesn't have a lot of good land. The best option for most civilizations is early aggression. Probably only Inca and China should be played peacefully.

For randomly generated maps, there is a higher chance that you get a map where building up peacefully for awhile is the best strategy.

Chariot rushes work up to immortal difficulty. But having horses does not automatically mean that it is a good idea to attack someone early. For most maps, there are better things to do. Earth18-Mongolia has no choice because there are no viable expansion spots.

And India is a relatively peaceful built. It can settle >6 cities in the peninsula, which makes early wars unnecessary. The first war can start as elepult against Persia.

I like S2 one tile north (on the ivory)
The improved ivory is a mediocre tile anyways. (2f2h1c)

You don't know fishing yet do you?

Be careful on your fogbusting.
There could be barbs spawning on the S1 and S2 spots (for example) right now

You are right. I correct that. Settling on Ivory is really better, because the improved mine is better (with railroads or found metals).

I get Fishing in some turns.