Economy Civics: In need of a overhaul?

[Uberness]

I just wish Kael would do something about these civics himself, especially agriculture, as I don't like having a non-canonical FfH2-Version on my PC.

agreed, alot harder to play online without a official patch.

 

[Gamestation]

I'm a fan of Gamestation's suggestions above, all those options look really desirable. I would increase the upkeep for mercantilism though to make foreign more competitive as an financial option (and maybe increase the bonus to trade route yield; + 2 coins in towns and villages is a huge bonus to compete with). It might also be neat if foreign trade could improve diplomacy.

These changes sound great, I think I'll immediately change some of my xml files to adopt some of them in my current 0.22h installation. I really can't stand agriculture as it is now, it's been incredibly overpowered ever since it was changed some versions ago, whereas the other civics apart from Guardian of Nature are rather useless. Your changes seem quite sensible compared to the current economic civics.

I just wish Kael would do something about these civics himself, especially agriculture, as I don't like having a non-canonical FfH2-Version on my PC.

So it seems I have a few fans after all. I should probably upload the changed xml files so that everyone can test them out to see if they actually help the game.

 

[onedreamer]

That one's a really good idea actually, a society focused entirely on farming doesn't produce lots of trade goods.

a penalty on route yelds doesn't represent a society that doesn't produce lots of trade goods. That would be a penalty to the number of trade routes. And btw I disagree, since agricultural goods are one of the major sources for commerce.

 

[onedreamer]

How's this for a change? Changes are underlined and only civics that are changed are listed.

Agriculture
High Upkeep (to deal with those who use Unyielding Order or Sacrifice the Weak)
+1 from farm
+1 in all cities

Conquest
Medium Upkeep
-25% War Weariness
Produce military units with food
New units recieve +2 experience points
Extra gold when conquering a city, reduced population in conquered city

Mercantilism
Low Upkeep
No foreign trade routes
+20% in all cities
+1 from Market
+2 from Thieves' Guild
+100% cottage growth
+2 from village and town

Foreign Trade
Low Upkeep
+1 Trade Routes per City
-10% , +20% in All Cities
+1 from workshop
+10% Trade Yield from Trade Routes

We're going to one extreme to the other... Agriculture would be used only in the beginning (when high upkeep is not an issue) only to move to Mercantilism. +20% gold, +2 commerce from village and town and 100% growth is huge. I personally hate cottage spamming and it's this kind of boni that favors it. Until now Aristocracy has made a viable counter for farms vs cottages, but not when you introduce such civics. I would give Mercantilism +25% gold from market and other commercial buildings, if any, and +1 gold per resource (except Mana). Happy/unhappy is ok. Foreign Trade can be +1 trade route, +10% trade yield and +20% culture, medium upkeep. And agriculture +2 food from farms, -1 base production in the city per farm in the city radius, +1 health, medium upkeep.

 

[Hawe Hawe]

I think "Foreign Trade" together with "Agriculture" is the second real big issue for overhaul in this column. I experimented a bit with Foreign Trade in two special situation whre it thought it seemed to be useful.
1. Playing the Lanun with Hanna. I avoided farms and build only coastal cities (more for additional game flavor). I had harbors in every town (missed the Great Lighthouse to Kuriotates, damn), quite good relationships and open borders with three civs, one far away on another continent. Could be good situation for foreign trade? I thought so. But the additional trade-route only in your 2-3 best cities is a boost. The others don't change much, because the trading partners are not best. In contrast to that the -10% gold is a general loss with much more impact. I like the concept to exchange internal income with foreign trading money, but the trading income also suffers from the -10%. Thats simply too bad even under quite optimal circumstances.
2. Kuriotates going for a cultural victory. I conquered the sidar capital with an heavy centaur-rush, so i had three decent cities plus one settlement. For maximising the culture output i thought lets go foreign trade! Its a culture loss in the end, because the +20% is always less then the bards you can run with agriculture.
So my conclusion is that Foreign Trade even in situations that seem to be made for it does never pay out. In both situations i immediatly switched back.

 

[Yakk]

Which makes +50% trade route income more effective than +1 trade route: it means you don't exhaust the good routes in 1 or 2 cities.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

And agriculture +2 food from farms, -1 base production in the city per farm in the city radius, +1 health, medium upkeep.

I think +1 food is still huge in Civ4.

 

[Sureshot]

the -1 production would be more effective as a -1 production on plains&forests in general.

 

[Storminator]

I consider the civics of FFH2 the weakest part of the game. In general, I want more advanced civics to be better. If I spent all this time researching new technology, why am I running a civic from the very beginning of the game?

I'd like to see the civics completely reworked.

PS

 

[jwin]

In the changelog, it is listed to change agriculture to +1 food as the current fix. It doesn't state but implies the -1 hammer will remain. If some of the modmods include the suggestions made here, we can let kael know what seems to work best.

 

[Kael]

In the changelog, it is listed to change agriculture to +1 food as the current fix. It doesn't state but implies the -1 hammer will remain. If some of the modmods include the suggestions made here, we can let kael know what seems to work best.

Yeah I want to tweak it a little and see how that works. If its still not right its easy enough to remove the -1 production in a patch. I will be interested to hear how it effects the overall game after you guys try it out.

 

[Polycrates]

Yeah I want to tweak it a little and see how that works. If its still not right its easy enough to remove the -1 production in a patch. I will be interested to hear how it effects the overall game after you guys try it out.

I've played a few games with it turned down to +1 food, and my impressions are overwhelmingly positive for the change. The early game in particular is a lot more fun and feels a lot smoother in terms of city growth (which is still fast but less exponential), and the race to build masses of settlers with the huge food excess is really toned down. Food specials are more important (and thus freshwater slightly less so), and I've even built the occasional seaside city. Cottages have a bit more of a chance vs specialists. Happiness cap isn't the automatic determinant of city size. Leaves is also much more viable for non-elves, which I think is really nice.
The production penalty is still a good thing, I reckon. When plains farms only come to 3/0, they're still very useful but not always beneficial in every circumstance, which I reckon is a good thing. It's not a big penalty.
Actually, I found that the food bonus was still very difficult to wean myself off, and I still never really felt that it would be beneficial to switch to another civic (except the leaves one). I couldn't help thinking it would be worth seeing how it goes with the civic pushed back a tech or two as well, to help with REXing and to give less of a feel of the civic being "always on". Not sure where to or how well it would work, though.

Sacrifice the Weak could probably do with some commensurate toning-down, since it really shoots you into the stratosphere when you switch, but that was the only real problem I could see (I haven't tried the elves yet).
But overall, I think it's a massively good change.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Actually, I think the other Religious specific civics (except perhaps Guardians of Nature) just need improving. I, for instance, like letting Arete allow unlimited engineers.

 

[Polycrates]

Actually, I think the other Religious specific civics (except perhaps Guardians of Nature) just need improving. I, for instance, like letting Arete allow unlimited engineers.

I really like that idea, that would be very nice indeed. To throw out another idea, Slavery could maybe give reduced unhappiness (or even none at all) from whipping, since it's supposed to be mind slavery and stuff as well. And maybe some way of settling captured slaves as superspecialists in a city, to give them +1 production. Dunno about social order, though it's the religious civic most in need of a boost (and something to distinguish it more from nationalism).

Even with boosts to the others, I still reckon StW would be better with a bigger penalty associated with it - its current penalties are almost negligible, and it's the one civic that really seems as though it ought to be a real double-edged sword.

 

[onedreamer]

I think +1 food is still huge in Civ4.

possibly... but I think part of the problem lays also elsewhere, specifically in the fact that irrigation is allowed pretty early. Delay that (together with the tech +1 food bonus) by a good deal and the situation should be improved without changing all civics (certainly not fixed, but it's a help).

 

[Uberness]

Problem with making irrigation take longer is it hurts civs who don't have rivers running through there land as opposed to a civ who only has a lake here or there or all plains by the fresh water.

Perhaps give free trade Low Upkeep +1 trade routes, 100% trade route gain and/or +1 trade routes in coastal cities, -10% gold maybe +10% science.

Merchantism High Upkeep, no foreign trade, +1 free specialists +2 happy from tax collectors +10% gold +1 [insert resource here] from merchant specialists.
And perhaps 1 more negative trait and finish production with gold added to it.

Need huge bonuses to make up for the loss of food.

 

[DMN]

We're going to one extreme to the other... [...] +2 commerce from village and town and 100% growth is huge. I personally hate cottage spamming and it's this kind of boni that favors it.

You're right, I'd rather exchange that with something like +2 commerce from workshop because cottages are generally useful enough already.

 

[uberfish]

Kael, +1 food per farm honestly still dominates its category (I've run a few games with agri modified to +1) - think of it as being equivalent to giving free specialists

Also, even if agriculture civic didn't exist, I'd probably just use decentralization most of the time, because the tradeoffs for mercantilism and foreign trade are pretty bad. Losing all your trade routes hurts a lot, but adding trade routes 50-60 generally just gives you some cheap +1 or +2 internal ones. (If everyone hates you, mercantilism could be useful.)

That said please don't bring the foreign trade unhappiness back, that mechanic is extremely anti-fun and makes no sense for anything other than vanilla Emancipation anyway where it specifically represents the spread of slave revolts. Just make FT boost trade route income as suggested by Yakk or something.

 

[Yakk]

How's this for a change? Changes are underlined and only civics that are changed are listed.

Agriculture
High Upkeep (to deal with those who use Unyielding Order or Sacrifice the Weak)
+1 from farm
+1 in all cities

Kick ass, still. At least you don't get infinite health.

I'd make it +1 health for two low-end agricultural buildings. That makes it take at least some effort and infrastructure.

Conquest
Medium Upkeep
-25% War Weariness
Produce military units with food
New units recieve +2 experience points
Extra gold when conquering a city, reduced population in conquered city

Mediocre.

Mercantilism
Low Upkeep
No foreign trade routes
+20% in all cities
+1 from Market
+2 from Thieves' Guild
+100% cottage growth
+2 from village and town

Makes cottage-spam even better.

I like my idea:
+2 gold per military unit upkeep.
+20% gold
can gold-rush
-30% science

which makes it a very good "builder" civic.

Foreign Trade
Low Upkeep
+1 Trade Routes per City
-10% , +20% in All Cities
+1 from workshop
+10% Trade Yield from Trade Routes

Workshop food is interesting. Could result in workshop-spam...

Actually it will probably result in workshop-spam. :/

+1 food is a huge swing in the power of a tile. That's half a specialist in exchange for half a happy and half a health, or better if you can manage a tradeoff somewhere else.

 

[Gamestation]

Here's what I'm working with now instead:

Agriculture
High Upkeep
+1 health in all cities
+1 food from farm, -1 hammers from farm

Conquest
Medium Upkeep
New units recieve +2 experience points
Military units produced with food
-25% war weariness
Extra gold when conquering a city, reduced population in conquered city

Mercantilism
Medium Upkeep (I decided that Low may be too good)
+100% cottage growth
No foreign trade routes
+20% gold in all cities
+2 commerce from village, town
+1 happiness from market
+2 unhappiness from thieves' guild

Foreign Trade
Low upkeep
+25% war weariness (trade is the natural enemy of warfare!)
+1 trade routes per city
+50% commerce from trade routes (You guys are right that +10% would have almost no effect)
-10% gold, +20% culture in all cities
+1 food from workshop

Responses:

Makes cottage-spam even better.

I like my idea:
+2 gold per military unit upkeep.
+20% gold
can gold-rush
-30% science

which makes it a very good "builder" civic.

Yeah I know . But that is the point. To make cottage spam actually be effective. Without my changes, grassland farms under agriculture could support 1 and a half scientists. These scientists could produce 5 beakers per turn each when under caste system and scholarship and produce some culture and great person points as well. As a result, 100% of the time you should build a farm for the maximum yield possible. Cottages were useless since they maxed out at 5 commerce.

By the way, the civic you proposed is horrible. +2 gold per military unit upkeep and -30% science are too punishing for +20% gold and gold rush. No one in this forum would ever consider using this civic because it is more useless than the current mercantilism civic (adopt caste system and mercantilism as they are currently will get every single benefit with none of the penalties that you suggested here).

Merchant Houses:
No foriegn Trade
+50% gold
-25% lightbulbs
-2 happy theives guild
-50% military unit production
Can rush production with gold
+2 gold per unit maintenence

This version that you proposed is also terrible. A builder civic does not reduce your research rate! When would you ever adopt this civic? When you've researched the entire tech tree and feel like making the game interesting by buying a brand new military that you couldn't afford to keep without entirely halting research? I dare you to try using this civic in your game and see how far you would make it before realizing just how impractical this civic really is.

Mediocre.

Your version of conquests was exactly like mine except there is no war weariness reduction in yours.

Workshop food is interesting. Could result in workshop-spam...

Actually it will probably result in workshop-spam. :/

Will it? Or will someone instead make their city as large as possible to take advantage of the increased trade income (understand that larger cities make trade routes more valuable to you and the person trading with that city) and therefore build farms as well in some places. Some places will become farms for people and trade, other places will be hammer heaven, and some may fall in between. At least that's what I'm hoping will happen. And besides, would you be able to choose between cottage spamming or workshop spamming?