Efficient Wagon Supply Route Assignments?

[BlindDefender]

I am a fairly competent Civilization II, III and IV player. I usually can figure out what I don't understand by reading this forum. But I have not found anything about this, so here goes...

I am playing with patch 1.01 installed. I am only just starting to play this game; in fact this is my first game, a "training game" if you will.

The biggest problem I have is with the domestic auto supply shipping system. I have specialized my settlements and have one each producing cloth, cigars, coats, cotton, and rum respectively. These products are then auto-shipped to a central trading hub settlement where they are exported overseas. I also have two settlements specializing in lumber/ore, and another producing silver/ore. The idea is for these few to provide building materials for all, allowing the focused settlement specialization many advanced Civilization players are so fond of.

I have no problem sending the finished goods to the hub. Where I have trouble is trying to supply the various settlements with raw materials in a timely manor. I can't figure how to use the shipping system to provide efficient materials delivery to multiple destinations from one origination source.

The auto system allows the player to send excess materials (beyond a pre specified amount) to another settlement via wagon route. If I try to do this with more than one wagon route, the first wagon takes all the excess materials away leaving nothing for the other wagons to deliver. In addition, this system will keep delivering supplies to the destination, even if the warehouse is overflowing! So I wind up with some places with too much, and others without enough!

I have tried many different ways to work around this, but I can't seem to get it solved. I am trying to prepare an army for the REF, and this problem in creating chaos in my colonies.

My question is: Am I missing something? What is the best way to route things? Maybe I need to just use one wagon to only visit one or two settlements and/or just try not to build things too quickly?

Thanks

 

[M07]

Welcome to civ4 colonization,
you will meet many other problems in this game, unfortunately you didn't miss something. You understood all of potential of the game , it is even unusual that a player finds any problems in the first party.
That's why, there are some mods to upgrade this game.

I don't think that a modder has resolved your problem, even if a better systeme exists, changes made will not resolve problems you met. If you want see this mod , click here

One of my aim, it is to change the trade system, but now i work on the Europe screens. I can suggest you to play with my mod Dawn of a New Era , I don't think you will be disapointed.

 

[Apocalypto]

Here's a suggestion on how to handle logistics:

Assign a carpenter and a lumberjack in each city where you want to expand the buildings. All you need to do, is find a location with at least one forested tile surrounding it, rarely a problem. (Zero logistics needed for lumber)

Plan your cities well. Build your Cloth city with enough surrounding plains, your Cigar city with sufficient grasslands etc. (Zero logistics needed for raw materials) Of course, this won't always work out perfectly, especially for sugar cities where you may not have all the needed sugar in the surrounding tiles. In those situations, just set up an extra WG or two and automate using the import/export feature.

Junction city: Here the goods will flow in, and that's just fine. Just make sure you build a Warehouse Expansion so that excess goods, if any, are sold and not lost. Keep an eye on production and keep your transportation fleet at a corresponding level.

Make one specialized city for tools/guns. This city is often the most difficult to find a suitable location for, at least one that is close to your other cities. You'll need at least three hills (unless there's iron in one of them), a forest tile, and decent food supply in the surrounding tiles. (Zero logistics for ore or lumber)

Ship tools/guns to the other cities in wagon trains. I usually handle this/these manually, but I guess you could set it up to keep say at least 50 tools in every city at all times. I personally don't like this feature and don't use it at all. I only use the import/export feature for automation, and always keep at least one WT at manual. Here's why: As you mentioned in your post, you have no control over who gets what first - which is perhaps one of the most vital parts of logistics.

So to sum up the main philosophy:

1. Reduce the necessity for logistics to a bare minimum

2. Automate manufactured goods with the import/export function

3. Handle all transportation of tool/guns needed for buildings manually to ensure they arrive in the right city on time


Finally, I have to say that I respectfully disagree with M07. I think the patched vanilla version of the game is both playable and enjoyable. You just have to think it through - then adjust. That's what strategy is. AoD is great, but different. I like both.

 

[M07]

I agree with you but your stategy only works if you have between 2 and 6 cities. When you have more than a dozen of cities, you can't use automatisation.

 

[BlindDefender]

Trying to select specialized colony sites that have at least some access to building materials and just using the wagon system to supplement intermittent shortages sounds like the way to go. I also like the idea of keeping a spare wagon or two available to handle unexpected material shortages or overstocked warehouses.

There goes my dream of having a super-mega sized lumber only production settlement, sending out wagons bursting with lumber in all directions. I guess I am just spoiled by Civilization IV. (locate a resource, road to it and you're done) Oh well...

This approach may be better anyway because I do notice that once each settlement has its necessary buildings, the lumber need lessens so settlements can then begin to produce more useful materials.

As for using other mods, when I get bored I will look into them. For now, I am content to enjoy this while I wait for Civilization V's arrival.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Apocalypto]

I agree with you but your stategy only works if you have between 2 and 6 cities. When you have more than a dozen of cities, you can't use automatisation.

Granted, but that brings up the question of how many cities one should build. Given the fact that you're racing against the clock to achieve independence, I personally find having more than 6 cities (maybe 8 max) to be counter productive.

There goes my dream of having a super-mega sized lumber only production settlement, sending out wagons bursting with lumber in all directions. I guess I am just spoiled by Civilization IV. (locate a resource, road to it and you're done)

Yes, well that's the inherent nature of Colonization I guess. You shouldn't be afraid to jump in there and get your hands dirty with some micro management, you'll be better off for it.

 

[M07]

Granted, but that brings up the question of how many cities one should build. Given the fact that you're racing against the clock to achieve independence, I personally find having more than 6 cities (maybe 8 max) to be counter productive.

Indeed, but in my mod we can only play in 600 turns so we have the time to found more 6 cities. But i agree with you, in 300 turns, to have more than 6 cities is counter productive.

 

[Apocalypto]

Hey M07, where can I read the changelog for the latest version of your mod?

 

[M07]

You must download it here.
It is a PDF file, that's why I put it in a server.

 

[Apocalypto]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

 

[agaro]

Wagon Train Routing
Quote: My question is: Am I missing something? What is the best way to route things? Maybe I need to just use one wagon to only visit one or two settlements and/or just try not to build things too quickly?.... (End quote).

I disagree with other answers, you are missing something here. There are two concepts that can help you a lot in this game.
1. Goods routing and vehicle routing are two very different things.
2. There are two ways to automate transport - one is counterproductive (automate transport unit button), one is helpful (assign trade route button).

After learning how to defeat REF, I don't bother to fight independence wars any more. I find it more interesting to build my empire and eventually defeat all the other powers - who by that stage are quite strong - and take over their cites and incorporate them into my network. But the challenge for me is to do it without letting these wars impact my cities or automated supply lines in any way, this means keeping all enemy units at least 2 or 3 squares away from my supply routes and cities. I try to coexist with Natives for as long as possible - again protecting my supply lines even when Natives declare war on me.

Strangely, the thing that was the biggest pain about this game - wagon train routing - has become the biggest joy for me. The game I play now on the highest levels is about building up a big network of cities and supply routes and fighting to protect them and keep them operating under fairly regular attack.

Anyway - here is how you use automated wagon trains / caravels / merchantmen efficiently.....

1. Think of each transport unit as having the haulage contract between only two close cities. They carry lots of different goods but only between their two cities. You automate this with the import/export screen and assign trade route button.
2. Goods often need to travel further than one city but they are transhipped at each city and reloaded automatically by the next wagon train / caravel. Even early in the game where I may have one wagon train serving 3 cities in the chain I still set it up to I/E the goods at the middle city.
3. Using the wagon trains as short range shuttles makes them much more efficient - the number of empty spaces travelling per turn is much less. You will also find they make good choices. They always fill up 2 bays if possible and pick the 2 highest value loads. The instances of wasted return journeys is much less than with other ways of operating.
4. You have raw materials flowing to manufacturing cities, manufacturing goods flowing to one big export port, and tools / guns / horses flowing out back the other way so the return trips are not wasted. Various goods chains intersect and the loads get bigger as they move from city to city. Each good may travel on 4 or 5 different transport units before it gets to its destination.
5. Because the wagon train only operates between 2 cities - it is worth building a road for that train. Goods move quickly and efficiently from city to city. Even though it may not be the most direct overall route - transhipped goods still often end up at their final destination quicker than if they had gone cross country using a single specific manual wagon train if you consider the time in the return journey as well.
6. I try to make and keep at least one empty wagon train in each city for emergency storage or for emergency shipments. I usually get to a point where one city that doesn't produce tools and can't support a big population, has everything it needs and just makes wagon trains for all the cities.
7. For things like guns, tools, horses, lumber, and ore I use the floats (export more than) to fill up warehouse in each city to a certain point then excess moves onto next city. As you pull out goods in each city for use they are automatically replaced by next wagon train.
8. Eventually system is fully primed and reaches equilibrium - what you are making is in balance with the time taken to tranship it to where it is needed before supplies run out. This happens fairly quickly and you can adjust it by changing professions at each city - to produce more or less of a specific good, or by putting the floats up or down. If there is a bottleneck this is usually because two cities are further apart than the others, or two long goods routes intersect at one city. The solution is to put two wagon trains on the export side of the problem city.
9. If you have roads, Lewis and Clark, and cities 3 or 4 squares apart it is possible for each wagon train to move 4 different loads between its 2 cities EVERY TURN(!). This is far beyond what you will achieve using other approaches.
10. You can include islands in your chain by having a caravel or merchantman shuttle operating the same way. However, you will need a frigate standing near the route to keep Privateers away. Unexpectedly I often use small islands to make horses from all those fish as you don't need anything else. Then I ship the horses back into the main flow chains.
11. Eventually I start to pull out wagon loads of guns, tools, horses at each city for emergency use. For example, war or if I make Ship of Line somewhere. If the flow of guns or tools suddenly drops (such as I make SOTL) I just pull some of these back into the flow at any location.
12. If it is convenient I sometimes close the loop - bring the excess tools, guns back into the initial manufacturing city so they can go around again topping up each city as they go.
13. There are two technical problems with this approach.
First: Later in the game there are lots of cities and import export commands. Finding the boxes you want to x on the menu of available trade routes can be a bit of a chore. It helps to name your cities in a way that each name is easy to recognize just scanning down the long list and that you know where each city fits into your chain. Fortunately you can rename your cities and all the wagon train instructions will update to the new name.
Second - if any enemy unit comes close to one of your wagon trains the wagon train drops its bundle and forgets its automated instructions. This means you have to re-automate it which is a pain as discussed above. I would prefer if I had the option to instruct each of my wagon trains to keep running even in war-time. I'm usually able to protect most of them and even if I lose a few they are easily replaced.
14. Forget spoke and hub. Think about goods flow chains, with lots of short transhipments via various individual shuttle wagons. Remember goods routing is different from vehicle routing.
15. Never manually load anything into a wagon train showing the automated wheel icon, this will make it forget its instructions. Never double click on an automated wagon train this will also make it forget its instructions. If you want to know what a particular wagon train is doing - use one click on it, then hit the assign trade route button and its instructions will come up.

When I started I got lots of useful information from this forum - but there was never anything that useful about wagon train management. So I am happy I can put something back.

I still have vivid memories of a game I played where I just kept making wagon trains and automating them (automate unit button) hoping that if I made enough they would sort it out. I ended up with lots of long convoys of 10 to 20 wagon trains each carrying 5 units of some resource heading cross country from one end of the map to the other trying to fill the same move order that must have reached the top of some internal queue. In the meantime all my warehouses overflowed. The funniest thing was the loud humming noise when I would press Ctrl + A and all my (200?) useless automated wagon trains would move at the same time. My recommendation would be to use the gift or skull destroy buttons on a wagon train before using the automated transport item button.


Hope this helps.

If any reader knows how I suggest that some of this info might be incorporated into the main usage strategy / usage articles section for colonization as I think it might be new info to a lot of people and it was a bit of a gap last time I looked.

The only thing I have not worked out is how to name wagon trains. I saw some notes that you are supposed to be able to do it but I don't know how. So if anyone knows this please post.

Cheers, Agaro

 

[dalgo]

Thanks for a very comprehesive and informative post. I suggest you start a new thread in the Strategy Articles forum with this information or it may be buried.

The only thing I have not worked out is how to name wagon trains. I saw some notes that you are supposed to be able to do it but I don't know how. So if anyone knows this please post.Cheers, Agaro

When the wagon train is selected, click on the name 'Wagon Train' in the box in the lower right of the screen to change its name.

 

[Apocalypto]

Great post agaro - now we're getting into some real micro-management!

I agree that the best and most efficient thing to do in Colonization is to micro-manage everything. My reply to BlindDefender was simply a way of suggesting how one might go about automating logistics if one had to, and I still think it's a method that works pretty well for that purpose.

Because progress in Colonization is an exponential thing, squeezing the most out of each and every turn pays off in the long run. When I play a game where I want to do as well as possible, I micro-manage every WT, production in cities, and the production of buildings in cities. For example, if I have a Carpenter and a Lumberjack in a city, and surplus lumber reaches above 18 (normal speed) I assign the Lumberjack to the Lumber Mill for one turn, then assign him back to cutting lumber the following turn. Getting that Printing Press or Factory up one turn earlier may seem like a minor detail, but when done in all areas all the time it definitely pays off in the long run.

I also name my cities as you point out (#13) to something like Cloth City, Cigar City etc, because I also find that it makes the selection from the trade route menu easier.

Dalgo pointed out how to rename WTs, and this is something that I use extensively. I usually name them Cloth, Cigars etc. If there are more than one, Cloth 1 and 2 etc. This is a great feature, because if you accidentally click a WT assigned to a trade route, or if its unlocked because of an enemy unit, you know exactly what that WT was doing and can easily reassign it.

 

[agaro]

Thanks for feedback

- I have posted a new wagon train thread in strategy articles section. It has a bit more information than the version here.

For Apocalypto:
- This is actually a way to avoid manually loading Wagons. I probably only manually load a Wagon every 5 turns. Shuttle based routing makes you think about transport in a very different way. I was a goods based router for a long time - but I never asked myself "should this long haul wagon with one empty bay stop at that interim city and see if there is anything to pick up and move even one leg closer to its destination?" In effect all my shuttle Wagon trains now do this at every city - and pickup the two highest value goods available. It would be very difficult to replicate this manually - every wagon, at every city on every turn.

- Some more info on temporary renaming for Trade Routes:
Fortunately you can rename your cities and all the wagon train instructions will update to the new name. As the list gets longer I temporarily rename the cities I want to adjust by putting 4 numbers in front of their names (e.g. 1111cityname, 2222city name etc.). Then I can quickly find all the shipments possible between just those numbered cities. Once I am sure the wagon is working I remove the numbers again from the city name. The numbering also makes it easy to remember the direction that the goods are supposed to be moving. Because I use so much I/E goods can often travel either way on a leg – so it helps to have the numbering option as a clue to the direction of flow for each good. Once I had 3 wagon trains on a problem short 3-square leg before I realised that the second wagon was picking up the cotton and taking it back to the farm.

Cheers, Agaro