Elephants in Civ7

On one hand, it would kind of make sense if elephant units were available to anyone posessing elephant resource, similarly to horses. On another hand, you could use this logic to argue that any unique unit should ve easily copied by neighboring civilizations (the process taking some time), but that would be simply much less fun than radically different civilizations with their own very unique units...

Elephants available to everyone become ordinary, rare unique elephant units have that cool factor.

Of course you can make elephants very rare strategic resource (only sometimes in the tropical and savannah areas) while India still has its own elephant for no resource cost and of higher quality...
 
On one hand, it would kind of make sense if elephant units were available to anyone posessing elephant resource, similarly to horses. On another hand, you could use this logic to argue that any unique unit should ve easily copied by neighboring civilizations (the process taking some time), but that would be simply much less fun than radically different civilizations with their own very unique units...

Elephants available to everyone become ordinary, rare unique elephant units have that cool factor.

I have tried in the past to make a case for 'mobile' Resources, that can be established (with Technology and Effort) in similar terrain/climate tiles anywhere. Given that horses were originally (5000 BCE) found only in a swatch from Mongolia across Central Asa to the edge of northern Europe, and were introduced by Humans to everywhere else (including the Middle East, India and Egypt early on but still after the 4000 BCE nominal Start of Game date), it makes sense that you should be able to establish horse Pastures somewhere other than the random places that horses start on the map.

In this case, Elephants make a case for that mechanic, because it would NOT apply to Elephants: strictly speaking, they have never been Domesticated and , except for modern zoos, have never been bred in captivity, but captured in the wild environment and trained. That means even if you could 'move' horses, cattle, and sheep to maximize your desired effects for your Civ, you could not do that with Elephants: if you don't have a suitable local natural environment where they flourish, you will have to trade for them, as the Middle Eastern kingdoms and empires did IRL.
 
Resources shouldnt be strategic or luxury. They should be Animal, Vegetable, and Mineral. Corresponding to how alienable from their origin tile they are, and how bounteous they can become with Human cultivation. It was mentioned by another, some months ago, that 'strategic and luxury' are just about how the resource is used, which mean it is a function of some kind of exploitation choice, a city choice.

Rising Tide puts resource trading into the trade routes, but it automatically trades everything available to the city, and still disregarded domestic logistics. I also think, as proposed on this forum by another, that the new game could be as much as centered around the mechanics of what is connected to what, developing with technology.
 
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In CIV 4, War elephant is a generic unit with Khmer Ballista elephant as a unique unit to replace war elephant

In CIV 5, Siam, India and Carthage has elephant as unique unit but these 3 unique units do not replace the same generic unit like Naresuan Elephant (I think it should be rename as Chang Suek which means War elephant in Thai) for Siam, Indian War elephant replace chariot Archer and Carthage African Forest Elephant replace horsemen. Thus, no war elephant as generic unit in CIV 5

In CIV 6, War elephants are unique unit, Khmer has Dombrey, India has Varu and Vietnam has Voi Chien

For CIV 7, I think there should be a generic unit for war elephant with an elephant as a resource like in CIV 4. For civs has elephant as unique unit should respawn near the area where elephant resources located or make an option like unique elephants can use horse as a secondary resource if there is no elephant resource nearby.

I think War elephant should be divided into 2 units one is for War Elephant with melee/archer and then Musket/Arquebus elephant in Reinassance era.

if there is elephant bombard/cannon as unique unit it should replace bombard and cannon. Interestingly that Siamese in Humankind also have Gatling elephant as unique unit, I believe if CIV 7 make Siam having Gatling elephant as unique unit it should replace Gatling.
 
I think elephants should be a unit for every civ. Like Legions. (Civ2) Like Phalanx. (Civ1) Sipahis. And other emblematical historical units. If every civ would have only uniques, I mean, the SAME units but uniques historically, what would be the most emblamatical ones to include ?

That way we could focus on gameplay rather than uniques, which are a pest for gameplay IMO. (eventhough juicy commercially, but that's your fault, yeah you ! players)
 
Elephants available to everyone become ordinary, rare unique elephant units have that cool factor.

Of course you can make elephants very rare strategic resource (only sometimes in the tropical and savannah areas) while India still has its own elephant for no resource cost and of higher quality...
That's how I kind of feel. Making elephants available for everyone in Civ 4 is how we ended up with a Fast Worker UU for India. :rolleyes:

Then again if elephants come back as a luxury resource, as well as bringing back corporations, in Civ 7 it would be interesting if you could only build a War Elephant UU if you end up having a monopoly/industry on them. Other civs could acquire them by paying you for some too or end up taking over the ivory monopoly/industry.

Civs such as India would still have their own unique uniques. India could realistically just have the War Elephant UU variant that other civs could get. They just don't need the resource to build them, similar to how the Saka Horse Archer is just a reskinned Barbarian Horse Archer.
I think this is my favorite approach.
 
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OK, I was confused for a moment. They will probably be back. (along with mammoth as moving resources ? Those could serve for great lumps of food until extermined... or not ?)
I'd like mammoths and other moveable resources if we happened to get an extra era before the Ancient Era, similar to Humankind.
 
In CIV 4, War elephant is a generic unit with Khmer Ballista elephant as a unique unit to replace war elephant

In CIV 5, Siam, India and Carthage has elephant as unique unit but these 3 unique units do not replace the same generic unit like Naresuan Elephant (I think it should be rename as Chang Suek which means War elephant in Thai) for Siam, Indian War elephant replace chariot Archer and Carthage African Forest Elephant replace horsemen. Thus, no war elephant as generic unit in CIV 5

In CIV 6, War elephants are unique unit, Khmer has Dombrey, India has Varu and Vietnam has Voi Chien

For CIV 7, I think there should be a generic unit for war elephant with an elephant as a resource like in CIV 4. For civs has elephant as unique unit should respawn near the area where elephant resources located or make an option like unique elephants can use horse as a secondary resource if there is no elephant resource nearby.

I think War elephant should be divided into 2 units one is for War Elephant with melee/archer and then Musket/Arquebus elephant in Reinassance era.

if there is elephant bombard/cannon as unique unit it should replace bombard and cannon. Interestingly that Siamese in Humankind also have Gatling elephant as unique unit, I believe if CIV 7 make Siam having Gatling elephant as unique unit it should replace Gatling.

Elephants have been used in a variety of ways in warfare, but there is an interesting dichotomy to all the uses: hey all reflected what each society thought was most important or fundamental in battle.
As Victor Hansen has pointed out (and made a nice academic career out of elaborating on it) the "Western Way of War" from at least the Classical Era was Offensive and In Your Face: the Greeks, Romans, Germans and Gauls all charged right up nose to nose and tried to kill you with hand weapons. In 'The East' from Mesopotamia to China, the preferred battle was to stand back and shower the enemy with missiles until he either left or was so demoralized you could walk over him.

War Elephants reflected those two different 'combat styles':

The Carthaginians, Diadochii and other 'westerners' used Elephants as Assault Weapons, possibly inventing the Howdah as an extra platform for attacks, and armed the elephant riders with javelins to break up enemy formations at close range and long spears (the Macedonian Sarissa, or pike tuned out to be perfect for this) to stab him from Above while the elephants trampled them. Of course, if enemy attacks or missiles upset the elephants, they were equally capable of stampeding back over your own troops, and there wasn't much the men on top of the elephant could do to stop him (some mahouts carried a long spike and a hammer with which to drive the spike into the top of the elephant's spine behind his head, since killing him was frequently the only way to stop the panicked pachyderm before he completely flattened your own formations)

In India and Southeast Asia, elephants were Missile Platforms. They carried men armed with bows, later firearms, and acted as elevated Firing Positions to slaughter the enemy from a distance. They took adantage of the fact that the great defect of missile fire is that before gunpowder the missile troops had to be close enough that a quick charge would send them running - or they died in place. Charging an elephant to get at the archers on top was a much less certain thing, and might very well result in stomped spearmen while the archers keep right on shooting undisturbed. (The Humankind Mauryan Elephants reflect this: they are Ranged Troops but don't have the malus in melee that most Ranged (archer) troops have, which, by the way, makes them extremely effective Classical Age combat units) They also frequently took advantage of the greater hauling capacity of elephants to carry greater quantities of arrows than a single man could so that the archers could keep shooting much longer, or carry heavier missile weapons, like small catapults, jezzail long muskets (weighing up to 40 pounds and so not really a normal 'infantry' weapon) or the famous Siamese gatling guns (which, by the way, in the Humankind illustration, are shown as Maxim water-cooled machine guns, which is actually more accurate historically)

So, there is a place for both 'generic' War Elephants available to anyone who can get elephant resources, which you could specify as either Assault or Ranged troops, or some very specific Emblematic/Unique Elephant units like the Mughul armored elephants, Siamese 'gatling' (machine gun) elephants, or the Khmer Catapult/Ballistae elephants for specific Civs/Factions.
 
Quite the opposite: the Galatians (Celts in Anatolia) were so unfamiliar with elephants that a mere 20 elephants basically routed their entire army: the "Elephant Victory" was pretty unique in ancient battles.

On the other hand, Celts in Carthaginian service (most of Hannibal's infantry were Gaullic or Celtiberian mercenaries) were very happy to fight alongside his elephants - until at Zama the pachyderms got stampeded back through them, which was always the major potential drawback of having elephants in your army . . .

I've said it before, Civ VII needs a Major Revision of the trade systems in Civ VI. For starters, a single trade system and not 2 systems with almost completely different mechanics and results: trading Elephants or any other resources should be subject to Trade Route length and possibly trade route number restrictions, and not limited only by Diplomacy.


Completely agree.
 
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