Emperor Greek AW - Honorable Rules SG/Trainer - PTW 1.21

[Cartouche Bee]

Hmmm, when I played I made contact fairly aggressively but I don't expect you to check every turn to see if the AI has traded your contact information either. Plus, you don't have to immediately purchase available contacts to other civs, it's your choice.

So here is the rule. [I'll update the rules page.]

You can ignore another civ until they get in your face seeking to speak to you. However, as soon as you have a dialog with a civ, you must declare war with that civ by the end of the current turn.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

JMB, hopefully, not founding Athens on a hill will not be the fatal blow. Irrigating the haystack for food should serve you well!

However, further in the game when you are pressing forward, founding cities on hills may save your skin a few times. The AI in PTW really focuses on finding paths to softer targets. So learning ways to present a unified front and get the AI attacking the cities and units where you want will be part of the exercise. You may well find that there are times that you will block the paths between your cities with military to help protect weaker cities from rampaging foreign troops trying to strike at the core of the nation. The tight build will keep your cities close enough to each other so that when you build new units or are threatened you can shuffle units to meet your defensive needs immediately. Keeping the whole nation working together and not as individual cities is where you will get the strength to meet your oppressors.

 

[Sirp]

Originally posted by Cartouche Bee

You can ignore another civ until they get in your face seeking to speak to you. However, as soon as you have a dialog with a civ, you must declare war with that civ by the end of the current turn.

Hmm....are you sure we want to play like this? I think it could mean we could have contact with another civ for quite a while without having to declare war.

While I don't think we should have to check contacts every single turn to see if one has been bought with us (indeed one of the few things that's faster about AW is you don't have to check contacts all the time).

I think that we should just go for either 20/20/10... or even 20/10/10... to start off, since the opening turns are *very* important in Always War.

Do we actually want to go exploring early on? I've found a useful tactic to do very limited exploring, and save up some money to be able to buy maps from at least one civ.

Of course being the Greeks I guess we might want to use hoplites early on to try to pillage/cripple at least one nearby opponent.

@Despot: I suggest that you try a monarch Always War game to start with. It really is VERY hard. Epic 27 at Realms Beyond is closing soon, so you probably couldn't play it in time, but you could still play and submit your report late as a shadow.

-Sirp.

 

[Despot]

Skyfish, by all means point the finger at me!!

I did happen to start the game myself and it is a lot of fun!!

EDIT: I took out a few details of my game because I don't want to ruin your enjoyment. It wasn't much, but since you haven't started yet it would probably be best.

Well I wish all of you lots of luck!!

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Despot, try not to post in advance of the actual game. PM if you need help. I'll send you my answer on the GL situation by PM. Maybe edit out your post to cut any information in the mean time.

Sirp, you are right we don't want another civ to never contact us but at the same time there is no way to force a player to make contact if they have a blind eye. Let's face it, if you have the opportunity to meet another civ, it gives you a chance to make a trade so once your contact is sold around things should fall into place. If they do not, then I will agree to step in and make a ruling to force the next player to make contacts, would that be suitable?

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Sirp, indeed a map is a coveted luxury in AW. Once you get embroiled in battle you simply can not explore, saving up for the map does cut your research so you have to weigh things out to your long term benefit. Personally, I've never been able to do that at this level, it would be a great acheivment.

PS, sorry about revealing the opponents.

 

[Sirp]

CB, I actually meant doing almost no exploring at all, just something very minimal around the capital, rather than the 'conventional' process of sending 2-4 warriors out exploring. This would give us longer without any contacts, and thus longer to explore.

The way I've been able to get maps in other AW games (including my attempt on Deity which got to the IA but failed there), is by using a tech as part or full payment. If you can find a relatively backward civ, to give one or two techs to for the map, that helps immensely.

EDIT: Oh, and I think a good rule would be that at a minimum, players should always check contacts at the start of their round. That way a maximum of 10 turns could go by without us declaring war when we should.

-Sirp.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Sirp, yes, in AW it's unlikely that you are in a big rush to meet the other civs, so city site type exploring might be the best course of action. The only reason I can really think of to hurry up a contact of some sort is to start training up some elites. Up to you guys to talk that out.

 

[JMB]

4000 bc - Found on the starting location, and notice that there is another wheat to our NE. Send worker N to irrigate the wheat. And begin researching Iron Working at min. I opted for the non-traditional route because we can easily grow in 4 turns and I hope to trade for pottery ASAP.

3950 - 3500: Wow, these are fertile lands! 3 Wheat within 3 squares of Athens. We have a hoplite for defense. Nothing of much importance happened.

3500 - 3000: Nothing much. In 3000 BC, we produce our first settler. Personally, I think we should send the settler to the hills (on the river) to the east of Athens. Alternatively, we could send him N to found along the lake (to settle the hills would require 2 turns whereas, we could settle on the lake next turn...). I'll leave his placement to the next leader.

Here is the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/CB1AW3000BC.zip

And a map of our realm:

JMB
Gothmog >>up now<<
Sirp >>on deck<<
Skyfish

Have fun Gothmog!

JMB

 

[Sirp]

Looks like a good starting position. Hmm...having CB having already told us he's won this really puts extra pressure on!

Btw I wouldn't be opposed to just keeping this to four players. I think that for tough games, smaller teams work better. Oh and, I'm almost certain that AWE (Always War on Emperor) is tougher than Deity.

-Sirp.

 

[Skyfish]

I am cool with the 4 player roster as well.
I think we now have a consensus as far as limited exploration in order to delay contacts.
Knowing the other civs can help us determine which kind of tech gamble we could run in order to have some bargaining tool when contact comes...or should we not do it because we have been spoiled ?

@Sirp: Ok I think I guess a few reasons but can you explain in detail why EAW is harder than DAW ?

 

[Sirp]

Skyfish: uhh...sorry, my bad wording. I meant that AWE is more difficult than a normal Deity game. This was mainly in reference to Cartouche Bee's comment to Despot about how this will probably be harder than a Deity game.

No no, I can assure you AWE is NOT harder than AWD; AWD is insane

-Sirp.

 

[Gothmog]

Yes! another bonus food. I would have prefered a cow but hey I'll take it. Plus some really nice spots nearby and lots of fresh water, watch out cowardly AI you are all on my list

Looks like a good set of turns JMB. I am content with four players and I think if we get through a full rotation we should stick with that. If someone wants in before JMB's second turn I think we can let them in.

I'm thinking we turtle for the moment and just take the sites shown on JMB's screenshot. They are really nice sites. If we can get a first ring settled with our backs to the ocean we will be in good shape. The only exploring I want to do atm is to find out our local geography.

I would like some consensus about the map trade brought up by Sirp. I like this plan, but I would also like to use all available resources to buy techs while we can. Obviously if we have an 'extra' tech to trade we score a map, but what if it's a decision between a map and an equivalently priced tech? I'm torn, last time I traded for a map in an AW game it turned out I broke the rules and killed the game!

Also we are currently playing with the rules as stated by CB, yes? Do we want to take a vote on whether to change to Sirp's proposed - check once per leader turn set and meet with civs that have contact with us?

Finally, I will try to limit myself to ten turns tonight - if I just can't do it I may play 15. It will depend on if anything important or in need of discussion happens (then I would only play 10 or even less).

 

[Cartouche Bee]

JMB, nice fast start!

AW minded comments: You may have over analyzed the trade situation, what happens if the first civ or 2 you meet doesn't have pottery? In AW a good strategy is do everything yourself, if opportunities come available then take advantage but don't count on any opportunities ever coming available. You knew that pottery was something that you need for the settler factory so a more direct approach keeps you more in control of your destiny. Another thing is that now you have to send that settler out naked into the wilderness, you won't be able to send out many settlers without escorts in AW.

Gothmog, if you meet another civ's scout (or unit) and can get the world map before you execute him, go for it.

 

[JMB]

CB,

I may have done so, but I also figured that we could easily research pottery next, if necessary (or forget about it as we have +5 fpt (whoops, I had meant to mine that second wheat, but ended up irrigating it instead...)). Supposing we had a granary, could we even get a settler out before Athens grew to size 7? Also, I seem to remember Uruk mentioning something like beelining towards IW first (and skipping pottery) in his AWD game (of course, he may not have had +5 fpt at his starting location...). I wish he'd written up his report for that game (he indicated that he would, but I have yet to see it); it would have been a good read.

As to our settler, we can send him out with our hoplite escort, if necessary (although, we do need more military... 2 warriors would probably have been better choice than the one regular hoplite). As we are placing our cities only 3 tiles apart, we should be able to get away with sending him out without an escort (I agree though, it is risky).

 

[Cartouche Bee]

I thought about what to say about the second haystack but really you get to use a forest that way or MM to a neighbor city so irrigating may actually have been the best decision anyway.

 

[Gothmog]

Damn server lost my first post attempt...

Pro's and con's, we'll live without pottery for now, but even at +5fpt a granary is good cause you can slip in an occasional military unit, not to mention a worker or two. On the other hand, going right to IW is good too because we will be able to see the iron and make sure we get some. Iron is key to our future. Also, as a second tier tech it will have mucho trade value and the AI isn't likely to have it. Hopefully we can hold off on contact w/everyone for at least 20 turns.

With sedentary barbs and our lack of exploration I will probably send our settler to one of the X's. But our geography suggests that we can send unescourted settlers to our west for the time being.

Addition - yeah I'll live with an irrigated haystack both the red and blue X might get to try it.

 

[Arathorn]

Boy, you don't know how tempting it is to join this. Great group of players, great theme, great start -- it looks like it will be a lot of fun. I would *SO* love to play in this.

What pace are people proposing to play? There's no way I can keep up with an AW game in 48 hours. I certainly don't want to slow up the game and will read it regardless, but....

Do you want a fifth, who may slow you down?

Arathorn

 

[Gothmog]

Arathorn, I can't speak for the whole group but here is my take.

We are actually in a similar situation. I'm up in this game and in LOTR5 and will have to forgo a little sleep to get them both done in time (i.e. 48 hours from 'got it'). I knew this would be an issue for me but nonetheless couldn't resist. I think we are going to be pretty flexable w/time. We don't want to let the game languish but we understand the difficulty of an AW game and don't want anyone to hurry. Also, we already have stated that we will be flexible interms of #turns per leader, and that we would like to discuss major events as a group even if it means slowing the game a bit.

What I would say is this - as long as you participate in discussions and make an effort to play at least a few turns when your reign comes around I would welcome you. Even playing a few turns will give you enough of a feel for the game to be useful in discussions. Also, if you do need to take a skip that is preferable to having to wait a week for your turns, so be honest when you need a skip.

Anyway how could we go wrong with a direct descendent of Elendil in our midst?

 

[Skyfish]

I must fully agree with the guy from Angband !

What does the rest of the team think ?