Emperor Greek AW - Honorable Rules SG/Trainer - PTW 1.21

[Cartouche Bee]

Emperor Greek AW - Honorable Rules SG/Trainer - PTW 1.21

Always war means you have to declare war with a civ before the end of the turn you meet them and never have peace with them again, ever. You may trade with the civ before you declare war, but no GPT trades, lux or resource trades are allowed. You can ignore another civ until they get in your face seeking to speak to you.


Honorable rules are declared to cut any fluffy tactics.
Optional - No despotism rushing and no short rushing either.

Greeks Commercial-Scientific
Random Standard Pangea
Wet,Warm and Old terrain
Barbs Sedentary
No culturally linked positions and respawn is on.
All victory conditions are available, however if you win by diplomacy you will be interrogated.

The 6 opponents were randomly generated and ended up as Celts, Iroquois, Japan, Mongols, Ottomans, and Zulu.

I had originally thought I would make a SG out of this but when I did a cursory test on the map I got sucked into playing it out.

This starting position is provided to allow people a chance to try out their AW tactics.

CB01 Emperor AW Greek





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These are the AW rules I drafted to govern my early game play.
My objective was a 20K culture win. [However, I did get to a point where domination was going to be alot faster. ]

Greeks Commercial-Scientific

Tight build expansion, no city can be built more than three tiles away from an existing city. Cities may be captured from the AI at a range of more than 3 tiles. Tight build provides excellent defense mechanism and the ability to do virtual shifts of troops to the front lines.

No wonders (including small wonders, FP) can be built except by great leaders.
The FP has to be built 9 or more squares from the capitol.

No infrastructure may be built until a FP has been established, that means settler, worker and military only.
Exceptions - Barracks
- Granary (may be built if city has 5 surplus food)
- Walls may be built if the city is under actual attack.

Cities that only produce 1 uncorrupt shield may only build workers, settlers or walls.
Cities with more than 1 shield production: when infrastructure is permitted;
- marketplaces (subject to availability) are to be built before libraries;
- when a city goes beyond size 6 it must build a bank (subject to availability) as soon as it can.

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So, it's open to discussion, if a few players want to take this SG no problem, I'm kind of hoping for this cause it is a fun game. Winning a AW SG on Emperor would be good experience, if your brave enough! nudge, nudge, wink,wink

The early game play rules I laid out can govern a player on a way to make AW work for them, there are other ways to play AW also. So if you want to share any ideas on this type of game, please do so. If your not upto a SG you can always give this a try in private.


[Edit]
Those interested in SG

JMB
Gothmog
Sirp
Skyfish
Arathorn

 

[JMB]

CB,

I'm interested in playing this one if it is played out as a SG... Hey CB, can you write up a report on your game so that after the SG (if there is one...) we can see what you ended up doing?

JMB

 

[Cartouche Bee]

You bet.

I want to gather as much info about this type of game as we can get. If it gets to thick with posts, we'll split it off into another thread, maybe in the strat section.

 

[Gothmog]

I can't resist. Count me in.

Looks like I'll have to post your training rules up beside my cpu

Where did the no infrastructure till FP rule come from. Is that just a rule of thumb for the aproximate timing or is the FP significant in some other way?

Also the rules say you don't have to declare war until the end of the turn, so if you met more than one civ in one turn you could theoreticaly do some bartering. Yes?

The early game is a bit harry in many AW games. There are a number of directions one can try to balance expansion vs. military. One thing I have done is to build one settler out of the capital, then swap to racks and military full time. I send the settler to the best food site in our 1st ring or thereabouts and it will be the factory. This way you get military out first to defend those setlements. Opinions? Alternatives? Another item of discussion would be, do we explore? or play turtle and do as much tight expansion as we can before contact is forced upon us.

Edit: oh a couple other things. First, I think Pangea will be more fun than islands. Second, AW often takes mucho concentration so we may want to be flexible with the number of turns per leader.

 

[Sirp]

I'd be interested in playing. I agree that Pangaea is the most fun for Always War.

I also concur with Gothmog that we should be 'flexible' with the number of turns per leader. I'm thinking as few as five even in the late ancient era.

-Sirp.

 

[Skyfish]

Count me in !

Some remarks :
- My understanding of the rules was that you have to declare war when the diplo screen of the civ you contacted will be closed, so that you can NOT broke some deals if you get in contact with more than one civ on the same turn : am I mistaken ?
- I like playing turtle, delaying contacts and try to run a tech gamble so that we have some bargaining tool on first contact.
- also agree with flexibility of number of turns, and the possibility to stop somewhere in your turn to ask for your team mates'opinions (giving it indeed a "trainer" SG flavour.)
- believe we should play it as an SG with the players that posted above and maybe one more.

 

[Gothmog]

@Skyfish: There are different ways to play AW, quote from CB's first post "Always war means you have to declare war with a civ before the end of the turn you meet them", that's why I asked. Just want to be clear.

 

[Skyfish]

Goth I was not picking on your comment I was also just laying out my interpretation so that we're clear on the rules.
I'd rather have some bartering options available actually, so I prefer your way

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Great line up of players going here, should be a great ride!

Contacts, since you don't have to declare war until the end of the turn you meet a civ, you can take advantage of the situation by brokering deals. This may work out to an advantage but it depends on how things go, that's part of the unknown, you might just be getting the dogpile on you, quicker. Besides, if you get the Great Library, this rule is almost mute with regards to acquiring techs.

Flexible turns per leader are no problem. Once we decide on the order of the line up we start the game, let's wait a little longer for a 5th player. I kind of like how Charis does 40, 20 and then 10 turns to start before we hit the flex zone. What do you think about that for starters?

The FP infrastructure question! Sounds simple but there is alot behind it. The FP is the probably *the* most important part of the infrastructure and as anybody who has played a AW through to the end knows, it's eventually required to keep up in late game research. The idea is to focus the game to that event early enough to provide a big boost to the economy and secure a substantial military. The FP building event probably times out pretty well near the end of ancient times and things should be in full scale war by then. Since the infrastructure restrictions are then lifted once the FP is built, what you do from there can be determined by the flow of the game.

I agree with the idea of specialized production. Having a settler factory and a few shield strong cities pumping out vet units is paramount to a good start in AW. This rule set is really geared to this type of expansion and the 1 shield city rule production restriction is included to ensure that some workers are out in the field making tile improvements and connections to all the newly created cities.

The pursuit of contacts is tricky, ideally you can be positioned to get some of the great early wonders and since you need Great Leaders for that, early wars are mandatory, not that your likely to avoid them.

@Gothmog, maybe this will be a prelude to that deity AW game.

 

[Despot]

<--- can be the trainee.

This sounds like a real challenge for me which is why I would really like to participate. In games I have been at war with every other civ at the same time, but never for the duration of the game. I have beaten emperor and deity on my own, but never participated in an SG such as this. Sounds like a real challenge for me which I like!

If this group does accept me, I would greatly appreciate suggestions before and after my turns since this is new for me.

Also, you all seriously need one not so strong player to make things tougher and I think I could be that player!

 

[Gothmog]

I don't expect the contacts rule to make one whit of difference, I just like to be clear. I didn't think you were picking on me Skyfish. Oh, and if you want to shorten Gothmog, I prefer mog to Goth , or even GM. Goth just sounds so... gothic.

I think 40 turns to start is quite alot, heck the game could be over by then . But I am amenable to what the group decides.

I see the focus issue with the FP, you need to survive the initial onslaught before you build any infrastructure (more so on Diety but still).
In my currently on hold Solo Diety AW game, I have a perfectly placed FP (hand built, I had no leader luck - only one all game used for the Colossus), and two full two ring cores (one is centered on the former Carthage where my FP sits). I can defend my home island, and had an earlier successful invasion of Korea (they are no more) - but am now trapped by three enormous navies and am waiting for ironclads.

The expansion issue is tricky indeed, and there is no right answer. If you meet people, you get to trade for ancient techs while you still have something to offer - but then you are at war w/everyone quick and that makes expansion hard.

I would definitely try Diety AW next, but let's win at Emperor first. This one is almost like GM-2 reborn, thanks for setting this up Cartouche - too bad you wont be playing with us.

@Despot: You sholder a heavy burden. Not that we need to make things tougher, but we might need a scapegoat.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Hi Despot,

If this wasn't such a high difficulty game I'd give you the green light. But these types of games are arguably more difficult than deity, so that's a tough climb for your first SG.

How about trying the game on your own and follow the rules that I outlined, to see how you do. If you have questions, feedback or get into a tough spot let me know, either by posting here or PM me.

There are a number of things that you can try to achieve that will make the game go easier for you. Since it's AW you pretty well have to do all your own research, so getting the Great Library gives you a bit of a break until Education. You start off only 2 techs from Literature so it's not too hard to get into position for that. The other thing is that you need to do is get some military techs, you need to be able to make counter attacks against all the units that are charging you. Consider catapults to wear down the enemy, swordsmen for their high attack value, horsemen for the quick hit n' run and archers since they require no resources.


Good Luck

 

[Gothmog]

Well, until next time Despot. I agree with Cartouche's assessment, Emperor AW is at least a full level harder than a typical Deity game.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Gothmog, I'm not set on the turn lengths at all so we can shorten it based on what the team says. If we don't get a fifth player today, we run with four and get going. I'd like to get at least one other currently active player or RBer.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

I've reconsidered what Gothmog has said about the turns. I think if we go 20 and then by 10's to start everyone gets into the early game. We will just go with the signup order if that's OK with JMB and if that's OK then you might as well grab it.

We can add a fifth player if one shows up in time to fit into the rotation (that should give us more than a day if anyone else has the nerve or can stand the restrictions).

Roster:
JMB
Gothmog
Sirp
Skyfish

 

[Gothmog]

Hey, if this is our roster then we are one lean, mean, fighting machine (edit: other words that rime with lean edited out here). We played GM-1 w/four, only 'killer' is missing from that group, so let's get this party started.

Not that we wouldn't welcome one more...

 

[Despot]

CB, I will try it out on my own and see how I fair. If I get into any sticky situations I'll be hitting you up for advice.

I'll also be watching this SG to see how you are doing and get some pointers from here. I wish you all luck and hopefully later we can partake in an SG together.

BTW, this isn't my first SG, but I am fairly new to them and have never been in an AW before so I will probably get a .

Also if things look bleak and you need someone to put the blame on good ole Despot is here for ya! I'm sure even if I'm not playing there is some way I could screw it up.

 

[Skyfish]

I'm sure even if I'm not playing there is some way I could screw it up

I'll for sure remember who to blame when I screw up !

 

[JMB]

Oh boy... This will be the first time I have started a SG. Talk about pressure ; especially as I have yet to play an AW game...

Ok, I've got it, and will try to post tonight. I like the starting location and am planning on settling there and sending the worker N to begin irrigating the wheat (the hills on the river, while better for defense, are 2 steps away. In my opinion, the increased defense isn't worth the 2 turns that we lose...). Any other thoughts?

JMB

EDIT: I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention about the declaring war on contact bit earlier, and so, I am looking for a bit of clarification... I understand the part about declaring war on a civ once they contact me, but I am wondering what I have to do if another civ trades contact with us to other civs that choose not to contact us? Can we leave them alone until they decide that they want to speak with us?

 

[Gothmog]

JMB you worry alot, just go out and kick some behind. As Skyfish says, come back for more discussion during your turns if you like, I would rather wait a day or two for the turn and have some roundtable input.

Yes, we have a nice starting position and I would settle right there too. Irrigating through the city is a bonus. The only reason I would move would be to get another bonus food tile (if more map knowlege revealed such a thing), hopefully there is a cow under that fog somewhere - but I'm not counting on it.

As far as the contact, you have a good point. The rule is "before the end of the turn you meet them", so does this mean face to face contact? I think so. The question then is do we have to meet with civ's we have contact with? (including ones where we see a unit moving by). I think so, but this is definitely a grey area. The only way to know is to check diplomacy, so do we have to check every turn? I guess so. The other ways to play it are: we don't have to call anyone up, but we do have to declare war upon exiting the diplo screen; or we just declare war on the end of the turn where we first met face to face with them and are not required to when contact is made.

Other opinions?