Emperor to Demigod?

[metalhead]

A lot of people say that the step-up from Monarch to Emperor is the hardest one - but since I pretty much own Emperor at this point, I'm looking to move up to Demigod, and I have a couple of concerns. First, Demigod is the first difficulty level where the AI starts with an additional settler - how much of an advantage is this in the early game, as far as research and warring are concerned? In the hands of a human player, an extra settler would be extremely unbalancing, but fortunately the AI is not quite up to the same standard. How does this extra settler affect your ability to effectively wage ancient age wars, and how much does it cripple your ability to grab land?

The other question I have is, is micromanaging necessary? I don't require any MM to win easily at Emperor, but if it becomes absolutely necessary at Demigod level, I'd rather leave it alone. I mean, outside of setting up a 4 turn settler pump and watching the luxury slider, I'd rather not have to deal with clicking through my cities every turn.

Any other comments to give me a general feel of how a typical game at Demigod level will go are welcome.

 

[vmxa]

I do not have any studies to give any quanative values to those question. The extra settler and starting units, combined with the cost factor will put pressure on you.

The smaller the map the less leeway you have to recover. Consider that number of time the Ai got a free settler from a hut at Emperor and you still won. It is worse here as all civs got the settler and on day one.

What it all means is you can pretty much forget doing any AA rushes. It can be done, but is much more dangerous now.

MM is useful, but to what degree do you have to engage in it? IOW what exactly do you mean by MM? Do you mean keeping cities form ever wasting a shield or a morsel of food? If that is what you mean, then no it is not required.

Do you mean not automating workers and making an effort to not waste worker turns, yes that is the way to go. Sharing tiles between towns to max out food/shield, probably not required, but not a bad idea.

Of course the quality of your start has a lot todo with how things will nfold and how much effort you have to sustain to get on top. The better the start, the more forgiving the game will be to any laxness.

How much effort will you put into getting contacts and making smart trades and timely ones? Will you take advantage of you starting traits and techs?

All things being equal (your play, your start and the opposition) you will probably find a mch steeper hole to dig out of than at emperor. I have seen and have done it myself, get a tech lead and hold it, but it is not common as near as I can tell. You will have to MM to the max to do that. This is not fun to many and they are not willing to go to that length. It also requires a good start and a matching set of traits (to the map).

OTOH you could go more for a blitz game and not make temples, make troops and grind them down. Have fun. Remember this is just my perspective and nothing more.

 

[budweiser]

In general you will face many more troops. You have to get used to the difference. After that its not too bad. You should be watching trades like a hawk, every turn. Then just be good at using your workers.

I have three DG wins. Thats it. I haven't played a DG in a while as it can be a grind. The first was America, large map continents. The second was as russia large map pangea. The third was celts standard continents. In this last one I did a celtic rush and it worked great to win the game walking away.

I actually didnt realise they got two settlers, I thought they just got tons more units. So I bet I could win at diety. Enough about me.

I suggest an agricultural civ to help you out the first time. Try and be peaceful and just sit back and watch how the game plays at that level. Like I sais, the larger amount of units you will face in a war is about the biggest difference. If you get in a war, sit tight until they exhaust all their offensive untis. Then you can begin to advance. They will still continue to send troops against you as they make new ones but it will be much less than at first.

 

[SJ Frank]

Expansion: I would quantify it this way: if on Emperor a 4-turn settler factory allows you to out-expand the AI, then on DG you will most likely be even with the AI. 6-turn factories will sometimes get you even land, but most likely slightly less land than the AI. The 8 and 10 turn varieties definitely won’t get you enough land, so early war will be necessary in those cases.

Early war: As long as you catch them still in expansion mode, or already at war with someone else, then it doesn’t make a difference. Otherwise it’s obviously harder. Diplomacy becomes more important, since alliances do put them at war with someone else. The F4 button gets used about twice as often , both for military purpose and for trading.

Science: I'd say this, the higher you go, the more important early exploration becomes.

Micro-management: I don't think checking every city every turn was ever necessary, that's just something people say to scare others . It should be fine as long as you don't use the governor and don't automate workers.

 

[vmxa]

The thing about wars with Demi civs or better, is the constant flow of units they seem to be able to send at you. The cost factor and free support allows this. It is critical to not be dog piled above emperor. They can just grin you down with all the units you will have to fight.

I don't think people are saying you need to be super MM player, so much as they are saying the margin for error is smaller. At this level you can still hang tough and out play the AI with better stratigic and tactical combat, if nothing else.
You exploit your advantages and they do not. You send enough firepower to accomplish your mission, they send in units piecemeal and hence take losses they should not. This lets you over come their numbers. You get more from your cities than they do and so it goes.

Of course this presumes you do not land in a spot that dooms you.

 

[metalhead]

Helpful advice. Sounds like a rather large step up, but that's OK. MM workers is something I always do - capturing AI cities and then looking at how the AI uses its workers is enough to have me doing that. But clicking around my cities to never waste food or shields is just not fun to me. In fact, I often employ governors to maintain happiness (but will, usually in my core cities, take them off). Is that a nono?

 

[rysingsun]

even at deity level extreme micromanagement is not strictly necessary although it helps. you certainly do NOT want to automate your workers (or anyone else). i would suggest while you have below 7-8 cities that you glance at the map at the beginning of each turn and take note of any city that has grown in population and check to make sure it isnt about to go into disorder. check diplomacy at least every few turns.

if you do all these things you can win at deity on any medium to large map type with any nationality more often than not. this of course assumes you are skilled in many aspects of game play including especially diplomacy and to a lesser extent warfare, trade exploration, prioritization of builds and many others.

much is spoken of the need for micromanagement and indeed it makes plenty of difference. but i will put in a word for an aspect of play not often discussed and that is grand strategy. it really does help plenty to sit back at least once an hour and just think think and think again about what is going on and what little tricks can be pulled to maximize your advantages. i think back to my last completed game and a mistake i made in the late middle ages. many wars had been going on for a long time with everyone except me and it was allowing me to catch up in technology. i think everyone else had been in the industrial age for quite some time and there were railroads everywhere except in my own territory. suddenly it occured to me that half way across the (huge sized) map there about 10-12 resources and luxuries that had become "available" due to those wars. and i thought to myself "how long have those tiles been available for me to drop settlers onto? all i need is right of passage with two countries and about 10-12 settlers and i could settle them all in 1-2 turns! i would have to rush temples in a few spots." well indeed by the time i had noticed this oppurtinity it had actually existed for 30-40 turns! ah! if only i had sat back 5 hours ago and studied that situation i could have settled much of that long ago! i could have by way of the luxuries improved my research rate by well over 50 percent! so belatedly i settled these spots. i settled a tile that brought me iron and said to myself "its too bad i spent 270gpt for iron the turn i got steampower!", and "its too bad i didnt settle that rubber tile as soon as i got replaceable parts. i could have sold that to russia 20 turns ago!"

better late than never of course. but this error i made had nothing to do with micromanagement or worker automation or any of the classic strategies we hear so much about. it had to do with failing to take the time to sit back and study the situation and plan the grand strategy.

to repeat the answer to your original question about micromanagement on demigod. no. it is not necessary to mm the game to death to win on those levels. it helps but it is not required.

 

[killercane]

In a nutshell, bad land + close neighbor, think war first. Good land + far neighbor, think expand first. Thats basically reiterating what others have said, but if you stick with that and tech trades you'll be fine. Just get out of the AA and Middle ages in relative parity with others, and you'll win an astounding amount of the time. It sounds like it wont be that big of a leap for you.

 

[Breunor]

Metalhead,

I think I pretty much went through the change you are about to make. I'm now winning on Emperor almost all of the time, but I'm finding Demigod to be difficult.

I don't know exactly which change is dominant, but I do know I have to do a lot better. Right now I win on Demigod if I set it up a favorable Civ and position but usually lose on a random everything.

All I can say is that I probably have to do everything better. Obviously, many people here can win on Demigod easily; so my guess is that you should try it, and see if your technique is good enough to win most of the time. If it isn't, look to improve; micromanagement may be one way. Or, just stay on Emperor. But you may already be good enough so try it a few times!

As the others have said, I find that on Emperor I can keep up with the AI in expansion. I'm not usually in first place, but I'm right there. On Demigod, I find I'm way behind. I also have few troops and get beaten up. One game I got a 4 turn settler factory and got an easy win, but other than that I find you have to be really good at expansion and manage that early period where you are behind in everything and trying to catch up.

Breunor

 

[Tone]

There is some sound advice here. I would add that I started playing this level by first learning how to compete in the early stages peacefully. I still give into tribute demands and trade frequently in the early game to keep the AI happy when I'm weak and expanding. I fight when I'm ready! New cities normally have one purpose only, so rax for military cities and granaries for worker or settler pumps. I try to play to my civs traits (eg if I'm commercial I don't worry about libraries early on, I just get markets and buy my techs), don't be afraid to get the lux slider working a lot, get plenty of workers and finally try to decide on a favoured victory condition and aim for it. Space or UN are the ones I find the easiest as by the time you get to the IA, the human's ability to make long term plans should overcome the AIs production and support advantage.

After a few games when I started to play a more aggresive game from early on, I was *very* aggressive-hit them hard, fast and in concentrated areas and their extra units will not be able to get to you in time. Get a couple of cities from them and they'll talk peace-even if their military is still strong! Then rinse and repeat.

 

[handy900]

CRpSuite (aka mapstat) takes a lot of the sting out of MM. It automatically checks for riots and trades each turn. It also shows who has the most gold when you want to trade a tech. Stuff like that saves time and reduces the MM hassle. I hate checking F4 all the time to see who can pay the most for a trade, or who has the techs I want to trade for.

I assume you also have the smiley faces installed to help with manage happiness.

Good luck. Pick a food rich start and you will own Demi.

 

[Tesuji]

Although I can't say I 'own' the Emperor level, I'm comfortable enough with it now that yesterday I tried my first two demi-god games using the celtic sword rush strategy. The first game I had a bad start and ended up squeezed in a tight spot between 5 AI's declaring war on me before I even had the tech to negotiate pacts. The second time was much better. The start was on a river with wheat, which apparently makes a huge difference. So it looked promising for a good while, until my GA ended. It turned out I had created too many troops to afford. That in itself I could have handled, but a few other 'inconveniences' happened at the same time, spoiling my game.

One thing that kept bothering me was that the AI that I almost completely anihilated kept converting back the cities I had captured, even though the resistance ended and I kept a good number of troops in them. One important city flipped like 3 times in about a dozen turns. So apparently garrison requirements are much higher than I'm used to. Does anyone have information on garrison requirements for the different levels? I had the feeling it was actually better to leave the troops outside the city so that they can be captured back easily. Also that way it doesn't destroy an army of troops when the city converts. Is this a good idea, or what is the best way to handle this? What's a good garrison vs. pop-size ratio? What's the best technigue to assimilate a good city?

The other one was that in order to support my huge army I was forced to switch to feudalism. However then the largest civ declared war. I managed to hold him back pretty well, almost completely wiping out his huge attacking force in a few turns. At which point war weariness kicked in. This stupefied me. First, the AI started the war (after I demanded he removed his troops from my land), second because I had maybe a single unit in his territory for about two turns only. How can this be?

Anyway, I saw no way to win this way as the only way to pay for my units with war weariness was disposing of a considerable number of my troops. So I quit in disgust. Hopefully some of the expert players here are willing to give me a bit of advice.

 

[vmxa]

Level has no impact on flip calculations, see FLIP CALC in the utilities section. Overlapping tiles and culture is what determines the flip. In higher levels, starting at Demi imo, you will have lower culture than the big dogs.

So if attacking culture powerhouses, raze those cities. If you must capture, use a tool to see how many troops are needed to prevent a flip. It may be too high. Next best is to leave 1 or even 0 troops in the city, if not facing a counterattack. Then you can recapture after it flips.

Of course starve them down, add in your workers, pop out workers or settlers (after resist) are things to try.

Sometimes you may want to cut the roads that connect to their empire.

 

[SJ Frank]

The other one was that in order to support my huge army I was forced to switch to feudalism. However then the largest civ declared war. I managed to hold him back pretty well, almost completely wiping out his huge attacking force in a few turns. At which point war weariness kicked in. This stupefied me. First, the AI started the war (after I demanded he removed his troops from my land), second because I had maybe a single unit in his territory for about two turns only. How can this be?

Here is the article regarding War Weariness. Having troops in enemy territory adds very little to WW; Losing units, losing cities, being attacked and being pillaged adds much more WW.

Anyway, I saw no way to win this way as the only way to pay for my units with war weariness was disposing of a considerable number of my troops. So I quit in disgust. Hopefully some of the expert players here are willing to give me a bit of advice.

If you think you're paying too much unit support, that is most likely a sign that something else is wrong. Either your economy isn't developed enough, or you have too many useless units.

 

[Tone]

Level has only an indirect effect on flips in that AI culture will be so much higher on the more difficult levels. I use MapStat and their is a tab to estimate flip probabilities and garrison sizes to avoid flips.

If I want the sites I either raze and replace or knock the civ out completely as there's nothing worse than agreeing peace and then seeing your gains gradually return to the enemy civ.

 

[SJ Frank]

Aha, found it Here is the article on culture flip chances.

edit: I found the link in the reference section, and the post itself was in the general discussion forum, but I think it really deserves to be the War Acadamy, as well as be moved to the Strategy Articles forum.

 

[Tesuji]

Thanks for the tips. I'll have a look at the flip calculator. I don't really want to use external tools, it feels like cheating. But maybe it will give me a feel for the number of garrison units I need. I do usually starve down cities I capture, but sometimes it's a slow process.

I'm surprised you say level doesn't affect it, I would have sworn it did. But the culture you mention could be the reason, I hadn't thought of that. I'm subjective (of course I am!) but the AI seems to have a knack of converting cities at highly inconvenient times, sometimes swallowing whole armies. (Maybe armies count as one unit?) Like the very turn I complete domination.

Leaving units just outside doesn't work very well at the higher levels, as the AI seems to get several units in the cities it converts. (Plus several drafted units when they have the right government.)

One thing I did notice is it never ever flips the turn after it got captured. Fortunately, since you want at least a chance to bring in any troops.

Another question: I always play with accelerated production nowadays. The reason is my multi-player games are almost exclusively with acc. production, and I'm more interested in improving my skills there than against the stupid AI. My question now is: is it harder to beat the AI on the higher levels with acc. production? At demi-god I have the feeling the AI is 100% (or more) productive than me. The reason I say this is I've seen AI cities produce a spearman and 3 pop in 5 (or 6?) turns, miles away from its capital, in my back-yard.

If this is the case it could be explained if the extra AI production is not a percentage, but a fixed number of shields (or gold) that would normally amount up to 50% in a normal game, but to 100% in an accelerated game. This is the same for forests, they're worth twice as much as in a normal game.
Actually, I don't really have an overall feeling that the AI's production is double of mine, but I can't explain my observation otherwise. (This is assuming in demi-god level the AI normally gets 50% prouction bonus.)

Last question (for today), I noticed I can't expel units from my territory in the case they're together with a settler. I can only insist they withdraw, but they just keep trampling my land. Is this normal? In lower levels I never noticed this but this could be because the AI is expanding so much faster than me, so they start looking for land beyond my territory. If that is the case, then sacrificing a settler and use it to explore enemy territory could be a powerful trick.

 

[metalhead]

You could also turn culture flipping off.

 

[vmxa]

Yes a city will never flip one the first turn. So you can safely have your troops there, for the one turn. Mostly likely all the troops you see in the city after a flip is either drafted or run into the town. I think they get one free unit, same as you, of their best defender.

This should not be a concern, if you have cut the roads. I avoid that by making a beachhead town. Then the AI will toss all of its attackers at that town, at least at Sid.

Once that counter attack is over, you do not have to worry much about them racing in units.

I cannot say if armies count as one, but I can say they seem to be very effective at quelling resisters. I will drop 3-6 armies in a newly captured town, if I want to hold it. Then I will capture or raze the nearest towns to reduce flip risk further.

 

[vmxa]

Another question: I always play with accelerated production nowadays. The reason is my multi-player games are almost exclusively with acc. production, and I'm more interested in improving my skills there than against the stupid AI. My question now is: is it harder to beat the AI on the higher levels with acc. production? At demi-god I have the feeling the AI is 100% (or more) productive than me. The reason I say this is I've seen AI cities produce a spearman and 3 pop in 5 (or 6?) turns, miles away from its capital, in my back-yard.

If this is the case it could be explained if the extra AI production is not a percentage, but a fixed number of shields (or gold) that would normally amount up to 50% in a normal game, but to 100% in an accelerated game. This is the same for forests, they're worth twice as much as in a normal game.
Actually, I don't really have an overall feeling that the AI's production is double of mine, but I can't explain my observation otherwise. (This is assuming in demi-god level the AI normally gets 50% prouction bonus.)

.

Ok, I do not play AP, but at Demi the cost factor is 7. That means a 30 shields unit cost the AI, 21 shields normally. So at AP it will be half as long as normal. If they can squeeze out 8 shields in AP, it will take 3 turns to make a spear. This is after corruption.

The pop you are talking about, is that growth? That is a a function of food and since you effectively get double.......