Emperor training grounds--I need training!

[scoutsout]

Let's see if I can knock a little rust off my beat-up ol' sword.

Turn 1/4000 BC
Settler SE, worker mines.

Turn 2/3950 BC
Delhi founded, starts a warrior, research set to...Writing at 20%... considering that... not a lot of expansionist civs in this game, so this is risky. May need to build settlers in more than one city if we can't get a granary.... but this capitol site doesn't have the greatest settler pump potential.

Turn 3/3900

Turn 4/3850

Turn 5/3800

Turn 6/3750

IBT Delhi Warrior>Warrior

Turn 7/3700
With the mine completed, the next warrior is due in 4 turns. Warrior South, sees incense on a hill. Worker roads.

Turn 8/3650
Warrior is renamed "Warrior1", continues to scout south.

Turn 9/3600 Warrior1 SE to hill. Sees a goody hut.

Turn 10/3550 Worker has completed road, moves East. Warrior1 pops goody hut, gets barbs.

IBT - Barbs kill warrior1, Delhi Warrior>Warrior

Turn 11/3500 Rename warrior to "Blockhead", spends a turn in Delhi.

IBT - Cultural expansion...

Turn 12/3450
No barbs outside new borders. Blockhead NW, W; sees another river. Lux to 10%.

IBT - Barb shows up on our border.

Turn 13/3400 Blockhead pushes west.

IBT - Delhi Warrior/Warrior

Turn 14/3350 Worker mines, Rename new warrior Charlie, move him on top of the worker. Blockhead west.

IBT - Barb moves W, S of Delhi, I was hoping he'd go NW. Dangit.

Turn 15/3300 Charlie to Delhi, Blockhead SW to mountain.

IBT - the stupid barb dances East. Delhi Warrior>Settler.

Turn 16/3250 Name third warrior Dan-O. Keep him in Delhi, drop lux to 0%. Charlie E, Blockhead S.

IBT - barb moves SE of Delhi.

Turn 17/3200 Charlie is redlined killing the barb. Dan-O heads east, lux to 10%. Blockhead South.

Turn 18/3150 Blockhead South, Charlie into Delhi (lux to 0%), Dan-O east.

Turn 19/3100 Skip Charlie, Dan-O East, sees coast, Blockhead South.

Turn 20/3050 Worker NE, Charlie S (lux to 10%) Blockhead S.

I must have mis-counted something...because I thought this was supposed to end at 3000 BC, so I'll play another.

3000 BC. Blockhead SE, Charlie S, worker mines, Dan-O south.

That'll do it.

After action review:

Not my best opening. The minimum research gambit on writing will likely cost an opportunity for an early granary. If this start were to be continued, it would probably be necessary to alternate units, settlers, and workers and use a "spawn" approach, in which each new city builds a couple of units and a settler.

 

[Bede]

I think that's everybody.

Couple of quick thoughts:
We have three conventional openings and two somewhat unconventional, but similiar, approaches. There are disadvantages/advantages to each.

Could we reason together on those?

 

[plarq]

Now that Viper,Eldar and I start on Pot then building Granary,no settler build in 20 turns,while Bede and Scout start on Writing and have a settler in hand IHT.

My Questions are:
1)Which tech has a previlage,Pot for Granary or Writing for better chance on Republic slingshot?
2)Build settler or build granary first?
3)How to do chop to accelerate settler building?

 

[viper275]

Now that Viper,Eldar and I start on Pot then building Granary,no settler build in 20 turns,while Bede and Scout start on Writing and have a settler in hand IHT.

Exactly what I think.

1)Which tech has a previlage,Pot for Granary or Writing for better chance on Republic slingshot?

Now that I think back, starting at Writing early could help if you get money and buy Pottery from an AI early on. If we to meet the Mongols or the Inca early on, they'd have it from the start, and other AIs probably would research it soon. All of this would be kept while getting a good start on a Republic slingshot. Of course, if you research Pottery first, a settler factory would probably be set up earlier and you could try to grab spots the AI may get otherwise.

2)Build settler or build granary first?

I'm thinking granary, then settler. Chances are we'll build a settler or two before a settler factory is set up, but a granary would let the city grow faster even pre-settler factory. But the settler then granary approach is good too in that you'll probably grab a nearby spot early and have the advantage of a second city.

3)How to do chop to accelerate settler building?

I was doing it to accelerate the granary, with a chop helping a settler you would have to think ahead a bit and time it right, but it could be done. Chopped and irrigated, a game square will serve as a cow or wheat, something needed for a settler factory.

 

[plarq]

Seems first discussion complete,I'll post my next 20 turns this afternoon or tonight.(I'm in Canton,GMT+8)

 

[Bede]

Here's my thinking on the start:

We have a ton of shields, but only one food bonus at the start location. We also have a fair amount of forest. It takes forty food and thirty shields to equip a settler without a granary.

While the population is building to produce the settler we can train two or three warriors for escort, exploration and garrison duties. After the first three towns (capitol plus two) are founded with research towards writing at minimum we will be in a good position to trade for Pottery and other knowledge, willl have an adequate military, and may have uncovered a better spot for the four turn settler farm, as well as additional luxuries. We will also have accumulated cash and have a good income to fund the science push towards Philosophy. At that point we would have the choice of building a granary in the appropriate spot, and also be positioned to develop our military capability.

Scout's "spawn" approach is also workable, if we haven't found a place to put the settler farm, and has the advantage of equipping settlers closer to their new homes.

Now for a heretical question: why push for Republic?

Lastly, which save shall we continue on with and why?

 

[scoutsout]

Now for a heretical question: why push for Republic?

Nicely put, Brother Bede!

Let's make sure we're all on the same page with a couple of things here. First, the "Republic Slingshot". Generally, the path to the Republic Slingshot goes like this:

1) Research Writing at minimum
2) Research Code of Laws, and
3) Research Philosophy first, and take Republic as a free tech.

In my experience, it's tough to pull the pure 'slingshot' at Emperor level, for a couple of reasons. The biggest reason is tech trading. It will be tough to maintain a monopoly on Writing long enough to get an edge on Philosophy, let alone CoL>Philo.

Having said that, what other advantages might we be able to gain with an early edge on Writing? What are the tech trading implications? Are there any techs along this path that the AI tend to neglect?

Regarding the conventional and unconventional approaches... what are the strengths and weaknesses of the two?

One more note... I've played alongside Bede before, and observed Viper. For those that may not know me as well... I'm a fan of discussion....

One thing I think is worth discussing is the terrain. Bede touched on this, and I think it's worth discussing.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Additionally, I consider relying on the "Republic Slingshot" as devastating as relying on the Great Library. You don't really need it on the Mid-levels, and it's contra-productive for improving playing skills. Heading for Philo is fine, though.
And, sometimes you miss it even on Monarch (happened to us in tmarcl1).

One hint: You're REL...and maybe someone shows up with Polytheism .

 

[eldar]

Firstly, the terrain. It's flat (suggesting we rolled a 5-billion y/o map), lacking in tundra (we're quite far north...) suggesting a warm climate, and from the low-ish density of jungle/swamp, but the fact that there are still enough rivers to go around, I'd say it's temparate.

So: Warm, Temperate, 5 billion years old.

We can get a lot of cities with more than enough food to grow reasonably quickly. In fact the starting spot would scream '20K!' at me from the start, especially as India where a quick run on Mysticism would allow quick early access to the Oracle. However I don't think 20K is really a suitable target for this type of game (for the record though, I think my approach there would be Warrior to find 2nd City loc, Settler, Temple, Wonder (Oracle)... after having research Mysticism first).

I like Scout's 'spawning' approach. In fact, given there are no suitable 4-turn sites around, it may work better than a single factory.

I think, ultimately, I made a mistake building a Granary. I should've built a Barracks, then started a Settler. I was aiming for a 6-turn Archer/Settler factory - 50 shields in 6 turns from size 5-7 is definitely on. So the Barracks is necessary first, the Granary can wait. Hence my research line was wrong. So I've just ruled out my save, then

By 3000BC, nobody had met one of the two expansionist Civs. We know there can be at most one on our continent, and the chances are, neither of them are: we'd probably have met them by now, it's unlikely their scout has got impaled right away.

Why do we want Republic? Well, especially as a Commercial Civ, it'll mean lower corruption, so more gold, and thus better trading. War weariness won't be a huge issue, as we'll probably be fighting bite-sized wars of 20-30 turns at a time. If we can get the AIs to declare on us, so much the better.

I'll stop babbling now.

Neil.

 

[Bede]

Good arguments in favor Republic, Neil, and excellent fog gazing about the location of the expansionists, with one caveat, we are in the far northeast of the minimap, what if an expansionist nation is in the far southwest?

Now for the contra argument for a government other than Republic....
It is likely that when we acquire the knowlege our villages will have barely grown into towns and we will not have learned Construction, nor had time to build many markets even if we have learned Currency, so unit support costs become a big issue unless the military is kept small. I think many players underestimate the impact that has. The received wisdom on the advantages of Republic developed prior to the Conquests expansion so it does not take into account the full impact of that change.

Second, keeping the military small and affordable means that warfare is not short and sharp, and the War Weariness issue blooms even larger than unit support costs. War Weariness in a Republic forces you to make the choice between content citizens during a crucial growth phase, and funding technology acquisition (whether through purchase or research). The resource distribution in Conquests (uneven) often means that you are fighting frequent wars to obtain and/or hold a critical resource like iron, or fighting wars to acquire luxuries to keep the citizens content, so that you can fight the wars to get the resource.

These two factors taken together can reduce the favorable impact of the lower corruption and higher income of a Republican government in a commercial nation.

That said, the overall commerce impact of the Republican government is monstrous if you can hew to a couple of principles: 1) no wars of aggression, in other words force the other nation to declare as that buys you time before war weariness becomes a problem; 2) use a minimal , or even zero, research strategy as that builds cash to fund knowledge acquisition, to keep the populace content during wartime, or to support a dominating military.

 

[eldar]

Okay, I've thought a bit more about the 4th Civ on our continent. It's the Mongols.

Bede found out that Spain knew Pottery, and Warrior Code. Popping Pottery from a hut I can imagine, popping both... whilst possible, I'd say less than likely. So, how did they get both? From an Exp/Mil Civ. So the Mongols are lurking somewhere in the deep south of the continent.

 

[plarq]

21:2950BC,Plarq met Mongols!!!Well Spain must know them!
They have 1 city,UP BW,WC,England knows CB.
22:2900BC,Nothing
23:2850BC,Plarq find 2 Wheat on 4 Floodplains
26:2710BC,Spot Spain Settler pair moving FP,try to blockade
28:2630BC,Settler Ready Lux down
29elhi Size 3,Lux 20%,warrior next turn
30elhi warrior->rax
32larq Spot Spice in Jungles Spot England and Mongol Border
Delhi 4,Lux 20%
34:2390BC,All learn Wheel
35:Build Bombay between sugars
37:We know Vikings!They are down CB,Up BW,WC,Wheel,I think WC is more

important.Trade for WC and 11g with CB and 3gpt.
38:Turn off everything,trade for Wheel and 18g with 9gpt with Spain.Delhi
Size 5,will build settler when it grows.Horse NW inside Delhi border.
39:2150BC,Barbarian appear N and W of Delhi
42:Viking start Collosus!
44:English start Collosus,England and Spainish UP BW,Masonry and Myst
Viking and Mongols Up BW.
47:I think I'm messed up,no clear logs are recorded,but I csay I'm
backwards and lack of gpt badly,only good thing is I'm the first civ to
connect horse.English,Spanish and Mongols UP HBR!
Summary:I don't check F4 too often,so I missed lots of 2fer chances.

 

[Bede]

Thought the plan was to pick from among the saves posted to continue on with...but you're the host,

so what's the roster from this point?

 

[plarq]

Roster :
Plarq(Played as a bad apple )
Eldar(On Deck)
Viper
Bede
Scoutsout

 

[Bede]

eldar's up?

 

[eldar]

I guess so... but I think first we ought to look at the save, and see just what's going on out there first! Oh, and decide what to do.

[Edit] Opened the save now:
- We still only have 1 Worker. I'd pop a couple of Workers out of Delhi ASAP.
- Switch Madras to a Warrior, then another Worker.
- Switch Bombay to a Worker immediately.
- Get a Tech that the Vikings don't have. It doesn't really matter how, just get one. Mysticism should be cheap. Getting BW for one of those techs is the only 2fer going.
- We have 12gpt going out to other Civs. That's seems a lot for this early in the game?
- Get the Warrior back into Delhi for MP, so we can drop Lux to 20%. Send that Warrior we build in Madras to Delhi for a second MP. And of course, connect up Madras and the Incense, and with 2MPs at size 4 we can run at 0% Lux. Build a Temple and it's size 5.

Neil.

 

[scoutsout]

I see I follow Bede. I like following Bede.

 

[eldar]

I guess we should only be playing 10 as well?

Neil.

 

[Bede]

Sounds like a plan but I'd rethink any temples at this point.

@scout,
whassamatter, don't want to practice your city management?

 

[eldar]

Well it was the last thing on my list... Although I'd like one in Bombay before too long, it's a bit close to Madrid for comfort. Oh, and before I play... where's the Settler going? We using the dotmap from earlier, right?

Neil.