Empyrean. Is there a point?

[Taels]

I think that the Empyream should be all about "My way is the only right way" and "The ends do justify the means".
Think Spanish Inquisition (not the Monty Python Version) or the "Wheel of Time"s Children of the Light.

That's how I've always pictured the Order.

There's not much source material about the Empyrean, but I imagined them as Buddhist.

Their Civilopedia entry:

Where the Order values law, the Empyrean values wisdom. Adjudication started from the teachings of Lugus and punishment is not based on adherence to a labyrinthian codex of laws, but from direct consol on the merits of each case. Social equality and impartiality are the model between a government and its citizens as well as between empires. As such the Empyrean gives equal voice to small empires as it does those that dominate Erebus.

seems compatible with the Buddhist ideal:

the perfect peace of the mind that is free from craving, anger and other afflictive states

The Empyrean leaders could only pursue social equality and impartiality if they were free from personal motives like anger and greed. I like to imagine the Empyrean leaders meditating on enlightenment (which, in the FfH universe, would probably mean an understanding of the will of the One).

Of course, like any powerful religion, some people will display the outward symbols of the religion without believing its teachings.

 

[ZhugeTien]

My view of the Empyrean didn't happen just because of Varn and his Malakim, though it certainly began there. In my Malakim game, I found the Empyrean to be quite powerful and flavorful. I took their creed to be one of liberty (the sun shines on all), intellect (Light revealing the hidden things of the world), and evangelism (let the light shine on every man). Perhaps this was mostly based on Varn Gosam's and the Malakim's descriptions and backstory, but seeing as they are the only direct examples we have of the Empyrean, I don't see it as a bad place to have started exploring the ideas of a religion we have until now known horribly little about.

I have explored also the synergies between the Kuriotates and the Empyrean, and those two seem to mesh quite well. Cardith Lorda the polymorphed dragon king leads his band of motley outcasts to construct a new kingdom founded on the ideas of freedom and creativity. That seems very Empyrean to me.

Various neutral civs could find a home in the Empyrean that does not conflict with their nature or change their alignment - the Amurites and Sidar (Yes, I know. How counterintuitive! But really think about it. It is better for them than Esus in some situations.) don't do poorly with Empyrean as a state religion, and even the Ljosalfar (under Arendel Phaedra of course), and Cassiel could find use in the Overcouncil, if not the Empyrean religion itself.

I've always found rationalizing away apparent differences to be one of my strengths. That's the beauty of the game as it is: Despite whatever "official" background there may be, one can take the suggestions provided in it and make one's own little story.

One of my favorite games to play is as a renamed Dain the Caswallawn. I call him Marden the Chanter, and he runs straight for Council of Esus and Gibbon Goetia. Of course there's still the same usual beaker spamming that the Amurites thrive on, but it puts a new spin on the outlook and strategies I have from turn one.

I suppose what I really am saying is that a little creativity and enjoyment of what one has goes farther than constantly begging for more new features, or complaining about the ones we have already. Sure, some things don't work well, and sure there are quite a few balance issues, but I'm a firm believer in the team's ability to do as they have stated: Get all the nifty features, bells, and whistles implemented, and then really worry about balance and perfecting the finished product. They're doing pretty darn well so far.

 

[thFrgttn]

That's how I've always pictured the Order.

The Order just seems a bit to tame, its there to combat AV, but gets along OK with the other religions. The Empyrean (with their Radiant Guard) and Sun spells speak to me of people who would view Fellowship of the Trees as heathen tree worshipping - and want to save the souls of its follows (by killing them if necessary).

For the record I think that the Over and Under council should be separated from religions and somehow work on Alignment. Neutral players can join (and leave) either (but not both). Good must join Over, Evil must join Under.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Thats how the councils are now.

It is pretty clear that you have the Empyrean and the Order confused. "While the Order wages war, the Empyrean Discusses."


The Order is the one that would go so far as to kill those who won't follow their laws. I is a fanatical religion that tries to force everyone inot compliance
with their laws and traditions "for their own good." Also, it is definately the Order that oppresses the heathen religions. The Empyrean and the worshipers of Sirona are basically the only other religions condoned, and even then with some suspicion/oversight to make sure they don't speak out against the Code of Junil. (They also force the normally peaceful priests of these religions to join crusades they don't believe in)

The Empyrean values Wisdom, not obedience. It tries to help its followers enlighten themselves. It doesn't seem like it would claim that everything about the other religions is wrong, but would try to use what wisdom their gods had given them to lead them towards a higher good. They are the Peacemakers. I've always considered the Story of Varn's escape from the Shadowed Vale to be a retelling of the Allegory of the Cave, and thus considered the Empyrean to be a highly Philosophical, rational, and Eudaimonaic religion.

Still, the Empyrean shouldn't be without its faults. I see them more as slow to action, letting evils go unpunished and unprevented while they discuss the appropriate reaction. (I made their temples boost GPP but lower military production)

 

[thFrgttn]

Thats how the councils are now.

Could you clarify that please. I don't see any forced joining and I sure I've seen the Under council joined by good Civs (and vice versa).

It is pretty clear that you have the Empyrean and the Order confused. "While the Order wages war, the Empyrean Discusses."

Sounds like your right - in which case the order a far to tame. I've seen the event about Order and AV existing in the same cities. Where is the events about the of religions? When it's your Civs religion and you have adopted theology, where is the Out of Control Inquistion that targets other religions in your cities (which would cause unhappiness in cities that have this happen)? Conversely cities that only have Order should get bonuses.

 

[it-ogo]

It-ogo, you were looking for a slogan for the Empyrean? How about something like, "Light shining over all the world." or "Sun banishing Shadow." or some such?

Light shining, burning Fire, banishing Shadow and melting Ice?

... "Reveal the Truth"

That's more like Malakim then Empyrean. I can't give a slogan to Emp because I don't feel a solid logic in their specific abilities.

 

[Deon]

Well the Empyrean ideology is really close to eastern (like buddism), but I'm confused with this "sun worshipping" and radiant clerics, they remind me of paladins, which are Order characters. I hope the Kael will enlighten us some day, or we will think about it our way.

At least their temple should be changed to unique. It should give culture, (+) and , because buddist temples always where places where people could find a soothing of soul and wise advices from monks about their health (believe me, my wife is a buddist from the birth ).

 

[thFrgttn]

My biggest complaint about the Empyrean is that that the Overcouncil is linked to the Dies Diei, which if the founder of Empyrean is going for the Altar victory, then it will probably never be built. At least the Nox Noctius can be build by a great merchant, but I'd prefer if over/under council buildings were wonders so that a single player isn't the only one who can create them.

 

[thebeef1980]

If the Empyrean religion is based around a concept of justice derived from 'direct consol on the merits of each individual case' rather than adherence to a code of laws, it's the Rule of Man over Rule of Law religion.

We don't even need to use our imagination for the 'darker' implications of that. Imagine a court in which Judgment is deliberately given in favour of the person the court decides is the good guy, not the person whom the labyrinthine codex of laws favours. Imagine that the good guy is defined by reference to preserving (i) wisdom and education or (ii) social equality. In case (i) you potentially have the corruption of late-Qing dynasty China, in case (ii) the arbitrariness of Mao's Cultural Revolution. So your bureaucrats - or cadres - sit around endlessly discussing abstruse philosophical matters and engaging in bureaucratic infighting instead of sending armies out against Hyborem et. al., while the toiling masses suffer under a system that's supposed to be for their benefit. Maybe you can't marry someone without a priest agreeing that your and her marriage won't create an undesirably powerful family? Maybe you can't expand the size of your fields, or change jobs, without a priest's permission? You can't rely on the contract you've signed if you have a bad reputation. What if you don't deserve that bad reputation? Tough luck?

You don't need theocratic repression, just bureaucratic pettiness and human nature, to make an Empyrean society a very nasty place to be for anyone except a priest or leader - which, I suspect, most of the FFH societies are supposed to be - but still better than many of the alternatives. After all, even the pettiness of minor functionaries and unfairness of arbitrary judgments is better than being bullied by insane Balseraphs, eaten by the Calabim, sacrificed by the Sheaim, or just plain torn to pieces for the entertainment of one of the other hosts of nasties.

 

[Deon]

Well you're somewhat right, theBeef1980, it looks like that they have a nasty priest society trying to give wisdom to everyone (what the hell is THIS wisdom?!), but you're not certain in your last words. Empyrean = religion, not race.

So it's easy to be "bullied by insane Balseraphs", but after "pettiness of minor functionaries and unfairness of arbitrary judgments", if the Balseraphs adopt the Empyrean religion.

EDIT: LOL Imagine the "Radiant puppeteer holy servant of the Freakshow".

 

[Mewtarthio]

...Empyrean Balseraphs?

"My lord, these two mothers both claim custody of a single child."

"Behold, within this place of splendor
A judgement wise your lord shall render!
There's child enough for both of you,
So why not split the whelp in two?"

"Sounds fair."
"NO! Please, milord! It was all a lie! The child is hers! Don't harm it!"

"And now, my servants, you will see
How great and wise your lord can be!
This one would see the child dead,
So how could she have seen its head
Emerge from her loins? Nay, the other
Woman is the child's mother.
But tell me, friends, what sort of asp
Would leave her child in the grasp
Of such a soulless, heartless witch
As her opponent? What a witch!

And now behold the hour of truth!
I speak the fate of this dear youth:
Shall I return him to his mother,
Or leave him suckling at the other
Woman there? My answer: Nay!
Come fetch my hacksaw hence, I say!"

 

[it-ogo]

After all, even the pettiness of minor functionaries and unfairness of arbitrary judgments is better than being bullied by insane Balseraphs, eaten by the Calabim, sacrificed by the Sheaim, or just plain torn to pieces for the entertainment of one of the other hosts of nasties.

... sacrificed by AV, zombied by OO, robbed by CoE, barbarized by FoL, forced to work for dwarven olygarchy by RoK, subdued, recruited and kamikazed by Order. Even suicide leads to reincarnation and things become even worse.

That is a dark fantasy and dark fantasers.

We can make an exercise thread for interpretations of different religions in positive and negative sense. But I don't think that social models are elaborated enough to discuss so deeply.

 

[ZhugeTien]

Awesome Perpy impression, Mew. I lol'ed.

 

[thebeef1980]

Mew wins this thread, along with a free consultation with the psychotherapist of his choice

 

[Cuteunit]

I forget which biblical character mew is lampooning into perpentachery there. Nice job though.

 

[Silverkiss]

King Solomon it is. ;]

 

[Cuteunit]

I kind of wonder why the rites of oghma doesnt have some kind of extended cult to it. It's just a ritual as far as i know, but there seemslike potential there for a good or at least neutral mentalism cult there? Or am I off base

 

[xienwolf]

Ogham would be neutral. Don't have much more than that he is the Angel of Knowledge, and his sphere is Metamagic.

World Info (link 2 in sig) has some knowledge about the religions and angels, but very little pertains to Oghma

 

[MagisterCultuum]

She is the neutral Goddess of Knowledge/metamagic. She is also an enemy of Mammon the Angel of Mind, and Erebus was her heaven/vault (at least in the D&D campaign)

 

[Cuteunit]

It seems like there's plenty of potential there for Mystra style faith there, of Oghma is so unfleshed atm.