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Encampments not very useful

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Tacgnol, Feb 8, 2017.

?

Do you think encampments are useful?

Poll closed May 8, 2017.
  1. Yes

    63 vote(s)
    50.8%
  2. No

    23 vote(s)
    18.5%
  3. Situationally but they're balanced

    38 vote(s)
    30.6%
  1. sugerdady87

    sugerdady87 Warlord

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    Building actual units is more effective for defense and flexible overall than to build an encampment + walls. But honestly, like I've said in Civ4 and Civ5 forums in the past, it's hard to truly engage in real discussions when people play at different difficulty levels. I don't know how it is sub-deity, but at deity, I can't imagine never "build[ing] a unit unless I am using the encampment/barracks/academy".
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2017
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  2. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    There's also a civic that grants Military Academies (and Seaports?) +1 Science.

    So military bonuses aside, Encampments have great value in either of two scenarios: If you can't build both an Industrial Zone and a Neighborhood, but you need to boost both production and housing. An Industrial Zone and a Neighborhood together give you +6 and +5-6 (personally, I feel like a failure if my Neighborhood only provides 4 Housing, but maybe that's just me :lol: ), plus the bonus Hammer for Trade Routes (plus, Great Engineers are more useful than Great Generals if we're setting aside the military benefits of an Encampment). The second scenario is if you've already got an Industrial Zone and you want even more production. For Housing, Sewers are a building in your City Center and don't use a map hex or a District slot, but again, if you've already got maximum Housing and your city is bursting at the seams (what, 30 population? I'm not sure how big a city would need to be to exhaust all the possibilities, but I'm sure someone out there has found it ;) ).
     
  3. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    Okay, I've got St. Pete's at size 18 or 19, max housing right now is 21, and have 3 free tiles left (+ merch, theater, and campus district slots). All 3 of the free tile slots are on rivers. I could grab a fourth, but would lose a bonus resource at Zimbabwe. Also have yet to build a sewer (so lets call housing capped at 23 right now). So 5 or 6 size increases.

    I can build a 6 cog lumber mill. Or I can build an encampment or IZ. St. Pete's is already under the influence of another factory/powerplant (with the +2 GL bonus). No mines in the area.

    I have 2 military CS's at +2 cogs per in encampments.

    Isn't an encampment the best option?

    In other words, they are task specific early game, and the best choice late game. If you have a +6 or better bonus from CSs, they are the best option for unit builders.
     
  4. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    One thing I'm unclear on, with the patch: Does each city only benefit from one Factory, period, or only from one out-of-town Factory? In other words, with St. Petersburg in the above example under the umbrella of another city's Factory, would it receive no production from a Factory of its own?

    At any rate, yes, if a city needs both Production and Housing but can build only 1 District, then the Encampment is clearly your man (or woman, if you're like Wash in Firefly). If, however, you have the space and slots for both a Neighborhood and a Factory, then the combined Production and Housing of those is better than the Encampment.

    Something else I just thought of: Can a single city build only 1 Neighborhood?
     
  5. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    One factory, period.

    Keep in mind that building a Factory in a city (City A) that is already enjoying the benefits of a Factory in a neighboring city (City B) can be useful, if the new Factory in City A will cover a third city (City C) that is not in range of the Factory in City B.

    Cities can build multiple neighborhoods.
     
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  6. FurballRocker

    FurballRocker Chieftain

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    In theory they are the best option for actual unit building, especially late game with CS bonuses, but...past the very early game i never actually build units and instead usually buy them as they are usually more time sensitive while using my production to build actual buildings and districts which aren't so time sensitive with gold also being much more flexible and abundant once you start to get commercial hubs and harbours up and running.

    In the late game in particular when i possibly might have excess envoys to suzeran some militaristic CS's with industrial and commercial CS's being priority as they are a much better empire investment and generally cultural CS being better also from an empire perspective and even religious CS's as you can still buy useful things with faith even if you didn't bother with a religion and someone has spread a nice religion to you then it is generally too late as i already have my military and as i am earning thousands of gpt i can instantly buy any more i might need.

    Therefore, overall building encampments and also suzeran militaristic CS's is extremely situational and in some very specific scenarios may actually be useful but as a general rule they are usually last on the list of investment to boost your empire.

    I never seen reason to have a city over 20, if i get anywhere near with a large city i usually cap it at 19 at most as i have built all districts i want in it and usually by then i am just cruising to victory with most of my cities switched to as much production (as little food) as possible to not waste amenities and running projects which produce extra gold which i can then use to buy any remaining items i want in cities which aren't finished.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2017
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  7. greygamer

    greygamer Feudal Lord

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    Totally agree, I have to work out what era my units are from to see if it's better to retire the general? Which brings us to...

    That is the best bonus in your opinion? :rotfl:
    And the old opportunity cost argument again ....sigh
     
  8. teks

    teks Prince

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    Population increases production, science, culture, and gold. I think its fair to say that cruise control to victory happens very early, but housing is still rare before neighborhoods and more people increases a citys overall productivity pretty substantially.

    I just don't really buy the arguement that, because its unnessesary its inferior. We can run a ton of inferior strategies right now, but I don't think thats the same as arguing that said strategy is the best.

    Like, if your saying encampments are a bad investment. Are you comparing it to theatres and holy sites? I hardly bother with research centers even. Why are these better?
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2017
  9. FurballRocker

    FurballRocker Chieftain

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    In general yes, considering most of them are simply a free unit (i usually have masses of excess gold i have nothing better to do with than buy units with), free unit upgrade (again have more than enough gold) or in effect some free unit xp (which not exactly needed as the AI is so poor in combat currently). The extra envoys are the only real noticeable difference to your empire which can't easily be gained in other ways.

    Which brings us to...the old opportunity cost argument which is often overlooked but is very important as it is not only a case of what you gain but what you lose by gaining it and in the vast majority of cases i would see that i would lose more than i gained by building encampments.

    My first few games i built encampments and then stopped as i realised i wasn't actually getting anything noticeable from them the vast majority of the time and since i stopped building them i haven't missed them at all.
     
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  10. FurballRocker

    FurballRocker Chieftain

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    I would rather use that spot to build a commercial hub or harbour though and have an extra trade route to boost production in any city i want and great merchants or use it on an IZ to get great engineers or a campus to get scientists
     
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  11. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    I play on Ged's Giant Earth, marathon speed. I'm still building units in the atomic age. I'm playing as Russia, and plan on going coast to coast with cities. I need the units to cover such a massive border. 8 little archers ain't gonna cut the mustard.

    So, as *in theory* they are the best option for unit building, especially late game, you are agreeing with me despite appearing not to be?



    Getting me over 20 nets me more production. More cogs the better, imo. Despite planning on having a massive empire, I'm not too worried about amenities. That's what entertainment districts are for (and Muscat, hee hee, my new favorite over Zanzibar... 30 commercial districts? wee ha!)
     
  12. PYITE

    PYITE Prince

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    I usually pick one of my early cities to be my primary trade route destination for max production. The city needs a water tile for a harbor district. Encampment- Commercial- Harbor- Industrial districts in a city will give 1F 5C for an internal trade route.
     
  13. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    ,
    It depends on how many unused tiles you have left, and what you can do with those tiles, and whether or not the city is already influenced by a factory.

    Going back to my St. Pete's example... if I build an Industrial Zone, the best I will get is +2 cogs for the zone itself, and +2 for the workshop. Total of +4 cogs. Obviously, not worth it. I can get 5 cogs/2 food from a lumbermill there. But, the IZ can be worked. Twice I believe? For another +4 cogs? +8 total? So more production if I have the citizens, but only if I have the citizens.

    But... let's say I make the encampment. With only 2 CS at +2 cogs in encampments, that is still +4 cogs (-4). Toss in the buildings. What is that? Another +6 or +7 (+2 or +3)? Plus the encampment can be worked for 1/2 the cogs of the IZ, right (+5)? Sorry, I'm not exact on these numbers. And this is assuming the city is covered by another factory/power plant. Then you throw in the housing. So another district can be worked, or maybe even an IZ built (again, depending on if I have enough citizens to work it x2, otherwise go with the +6 cog lumbermill).

    So given the circumstances, the encampment is a bigger production increase than the IZ.

    Note that I *could* still put down another neighborhood, but the encampment would still net me more cogs. Unless a factory and powerplant allow 4 citizens at 4 cogs each or something like that. That, I haven't checked.

    At any rate... nobody is building these things in order to win. There are a number of reasons to build them, but simply to win is not one of them. The only way to lose in VI is the early zerg, and unless you get a hyper unlucky start, just building 2 warriors and a ranged bang-bang-bang will insure your survival. No, these are built because they assist your playstyle. And while it is entirely possible that you are so obtuse that you are building these thinking they are enhancing your playstyle while in fact they are frustrating it, it is more likely than not that if you think they are enhancing your playstyle, than they are.

    I've seeing the choice as: I can get out 6 tanks over x amount of turns, or 5. Guess I'll go with 6. Why not. And even then, I haven't done the math. Maybe it would be the same number of turns. Do extra cogs carry over? They do from chopping, what about excess from non-chopping? If so, maybe I'll get 1 extra tank every 5,000 turns. I dunno. But when I look at the city screen, seeing +72 production vs. +67 matters.

    nother edit: On a side note, I have one pathetic lake tile. Seeing as how my lumbermills are so fat, I may put a harbor on that one lake tile instead of using my last district for an IZ. I figure with Great Zimbawubba the trade route alone is worth it. Yes... you guessed it... with Muscat AND Zimba, I am getting @+28 gold per route just from the wonder, and +1 amenity per commercial district (with a large enough empire, Muscat steamrolls Zanzibar - I think Zanzibar gives you +1 amenity in 6 or 8 cities, right? That's cute. Muscat can give you +1 amenity in 100 cities).

    2nd 2nd edit: I figure, with +11 food from religion, each city can have a commercial hub no problem. So size 9 cities before additional amenities kick in (assuming zoo/coloseum). Bigger than 9, I can build an entertainment district and arena for another +6 housing, and net a district. Right? So should be able to recreate the USSR no problem.

    Final edit: I also stumbled into Suzy of Stockholme. So now all my commercial hubs have +1 GMP. Between that and Dance of the Aurora, I now I have jeans, toys, and ... perfume? Is that right? Stockholme, Zimbabwe, and Muscat... a very good triad.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2017
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  14. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    three things I don't think have been mentioned:
    - at least one is required for Alhambra which provides an extra military policy slot.
    - they really help science victory (6 cogs from the district itself, plus +15 percent to space projects via that space race policy)
    - to get the eureka for Civil Engineering (7 different districts) if you skipped religion you need one

    Combined with everything else (less resource requirements, defense, 2 housing, extra production from trade routes) they are definitely worth building one or two in most games, even peaceful ones.
     
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  15. Art Morte

    Art Morte Prince

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    As a concept, I like them a lot. But, as has been pointed out, the AI's hopelessness makes them rather unnecessary, either as defensive fortifications or places to build better units at.

    Usually I only build an encampment in early'ish game if I have access to only one iron. After all, Knights are pretty powerful to ignore.
    Normally I grow tired of offensive warfare before mid-game (unless going for domination) and I may then build an encampment or two in border cities just for fun, just because it feels kind of right and nice to have a well-fortified border.

    Anyway, I like the bonuses they give, but on the other hand you don't need any military bonuses against the AI, which sort of defeats their purpose for a large part.
     
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  16. VicRatlhead5199

    VicRatlhead5199 King

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    Factories and power plants don't stack anymore. I could see building overlaps if you have some crazy good adj bonuses in two cities. Then you could just skip building the PP and factory in any city that gets those benefits from another city.

    Just talking raw cogs alone, you get 6 cogs from an encampment with a military academy. An IZ in an overlap area would need to have a +5 adj bonus to top that. That's not considering the couple housing points and defensive bonuses you get from encampments.

    I mean, yeah, you need to make sure all cities are affected by an IZ and ent district but after that what districts give the most benefit for domination? Holy and theater are almost pointless to build so once you crank out a comm, camp and maybe a harbor if you're on the shore what do you build?

    Also, do people really stop expanding their armies? You need extra units to create corps and armies and I see no reason why when going Dom you need to fight just one front once you can support two or three.

    I never built them before the IZ overlap nerf but they've basically become a defacto build in the places I used to put IZs.

    I'm seeing arguments for why you can get away without them but I'm not really seeing great explanations for what outweighs them in the long game.
     
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  17. PendragonWRB

    PendragonWRB Prince

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    If encampments are bad because of 'opportunity cost', what is better? What is the ordered priority of districts?

    1-Commerce
    2-Harbor (if applicable)
    3-Encampment
    4-Industrial
    5-Entertainment
    6-Academy
    7-Theater
    8-Religious

    I only build one or two Academies/Theaters and add Entertainment as needed, but every city should be able to support at least three districts, so I am just not buying this 'opportunity' cost argument.

    As Saladin, I am building Religious districts, but in general I totally ignore religion.
     
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  18. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    Well, funnily enough, as Egon kinda pointed out, now that IZ are no longer the end-all be-all of production, a nice alternative is the entertainment district. +2 amenities is +6 tiles that can be worked, yes? Even with lumber mills on flat grass, that's still not bad. So even with the overlap of zoos and coliseums, it may be well worth giving every city some fun. If you have the space, an ED is much better than an encampment for raw production.

    Or am I just nuts?

    edit: of course, this is from the perspective of someone in the middle of trying to build a massive empire.
     
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  19. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Assuming not playing a civ with a unique district that replaces one of the above ones and also not seeking a religious victory that would generally be
    #1 Commerce
    #2 Harbor
    #3 Science District (I do note though that this is avilable earlier than the above two)
    --- below this point not all districts evenually built in every allowed city ---
    #4 Industrial District (focus on those districts which are sufficient to bring every city in the empire within 6 hexes of an IZ)
    #5 Encampment District (focus here is on designated unit building cities; possibly also a city expected to see a lot of defensive combat; perhaps also one in capital if non coastal if also going science victory for the space race civic)
    #6 Theater (only as needed to create new great work slots)
    #7 Entertainment (only as needed for amenities; and also consider the 6 hex range)
    #8 Religious district (only if there's a tile with a significant enough adjacency bonus; for faith buying a few key great people before the AI can.)
     
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  20. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Yeah, I'm tempted to think that Entertainment zones are a little under-appreciated. Especially if you can push your cities into the happy zone, getting +5% to production and yields can actually be a pretty sizeable bonus overall.
     
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