excellent, i was hoping i could find an undergrad to do my work like the old days quantify sir... find the present value at build times x, x+y, x+z, (dunno what levels of y and z are best... maybe 100 turns, 200 turns?) of a CD vs an encampment by somehow equating prod/housing/gold. we can leave the rest of the attributes of the encampment to further study (and your nobel no doubt). regarding the GMP i'm not denegrating them, i love em. I'm saying most people undervalue the other GPP (esp if everyone is so dom focused... in that case GG are ridiculous both offensively and vs offensive MP civs --- believe me, pop the first gg in a mp game and watch rome cry as he tries to invade!, but i MP digress...). Even so, a single GG adds a ton of power to xbows and speeds up dom by a good deal. whether that is worth the lost gold and food/prod from a trader relative to an encampment is the point of the discussion.