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Encampments not very useful

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Tacgnol, Feb 8, 2017.

?

Do you think encampments are useful?

Poll closed May 8, 2017.
  1. Yes

    63 vote(s)
    50.8%
  2. No

    23 vote(s)
    18.5%
  3. Situationally but they're balanced

    38 vote(s)
    30.6%
  1. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    I've fallen behind in this thread, but have Adjacency Bonuses and Citizen Yields been addressed? Personally I feel like a failure if I build a District without at least a +2 Adjacency Bonus (or the anticipation that I can make it +2) and I think it can go as high as +5. Harbors provide Production with Shipyards, in the form of an Adjacency Bonus. I think the Citizen Yield for an Encampment is +1 Production and +1 Culture, where it's +2 Production for Industrial Zones. Military Academies and Seaports can also provide a +1 Science, but that requires a Social Policy card, so I'm not convinced that's worth it.
     
  2. VicRatlhead5199

    VicRatlhead5199 King

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    When did this turn into a "what to build first" thread. There are definitely better districts, no doubt about that, but there are also definite times when an encampment will pay for itself quicker and with extra fringe bonuses than other districts would.
     
  3. ShinigamiKenji

    ShinigamiKenji King

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    Specialist yields are currently quite laughable to be worth considering. Most of the time, I'd rather work an unimproved tile than a Specialist.

    I think an Encampment with Barracks is roughly on par with an IZ + Workshop without adjacency bonuses. But the housing compensates for the lack of them, IMO.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  4. knighterrant81

    knighterrant81 Warlord

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    The question "are Encampments useful" is basically the same thing as asking "should I ever build Encampments, and if so, when". Because you can only build one district at a time per "slot", the choice is "which one do I build first".

    Lets make sure we're talking about the same thing. When I say "slot" I'm referring to the population at which you can build a new district. So pop 1 "slot," pop 4 "slot", pop 7 "slot" and so on. Not talking about the citizens working buildings in districts.
     
  5. ShinigamiKenji

    ShinigamiKenji King

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    Sorry, maybe I should have written "Specialists" instead of "District slot". Changed that, though it still feels weird to say "Specialists" if they don't give me GPP.
     
  6. Quillan

    Quillan Monkey Butler

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    well i hope you got some gpp for valentines day sir...
     
  7. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    Not to derail, but we haven't seen a unique encampment yet have we? Poland doesn't count.

    I'm just speculating... but Mongolia plus unique encampment?

    Anyway... since the revamp the encampment is a bigger production gain than an IZ, once you are under a factory zone already. But both can be lengthy investments, compared to a lumber mill. Guess it depends on how you long you plan on using the encampment for. Hmmm... which is interesting. Because the sooner you build the encampment, the more return you get on your investment. But it can be such a lengthy investment, that I generally only desire one, possibly two, until later in the game, usually when I'm deciding what to do with the last few free tiles around a city. So unless you are investing in great generals, or spam them so lots of cities can build units that otherwise wouldn't be able to, well, there is your questing beast of opportunity cost right there, right? Which leads me to believe that they are only worth spamming if you have or are planning on investing in some military city-state envoys.

    Funny how not much of this discussion has included the envoys. Industrial envoys help with buildings, districts, and wonders. But military envoys... +8 from envoys towards units should be doable in almost any game.

    I would imagine that they would have great benefit when placed in a 1 tile wide valley or something like that, where they are both fort and blocker.

    Try playing a few games in which you spam them, see what happens.

    From a Russian perspective, I can tell you that an encampment is going to be a hell of a lot better than snow.
     
  8. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Japan gets a half-priced encampment too, but there's nothing else otherwise special about it.

    If they were to have Mongolia, certainly they would be a prime civ to have a unique encampment (the ger, presumably). Have it give a housing and/or food bonus, and that could make some sense.

    If they want to get creative, they could try to build a Mongolian civ to be creative like they did for Venice in civ 5. Maybe something like they can't build settlers, but when they clear a barbarian camp, there's a chance it will spawn a settler for them or turn into a city?
     
  9. VicRatlhead5199

    VicRatlhead5199 King

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    I imagine the Zulu Kraal will be revamped into an encampment.
     
  10. ShinigamiKenji

    ShinigamiKenji King

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    I'd say Mongolia (or the Huns) shouldn't be able to build Aqueducts or Neighborhoods, but have a special Encampment that grants housing, production if besides Horses and may be built more than once (though not adjacent to each other). It'd be quite a change in gameplay (as much as Kongo and their Mbanzas).
     
  11. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    lots of production from non-mine/quarry tiles (pastures, rainforest resources, etc.)
    +
    no mines or quarries for IZ adjacency bonuses
    +
    covered by another city's factory
    =
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    optimal location for an encampment district

    extra credit:
    -fort and bombardment on chokepoint
    -desire for generals and other cities with encampments to move that progress along
    -city location prevents aqueduct and/or fresh water, desperate for housing
    -good rally point
     
  12. knighterrant81

    knighterrant81 Warlord

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    That depends on adjacency bonuses. Also, remember an Encampment isn't providing maximum production until it has an Academy, which is Industrial era, whereas a even a non-Factory IZ gets its benefits on the same tech. Craftsmanship is in the same Era of Civics too.

    So lets assume we're in the Medieval era. We can build either an IZ or an Encampment (say, perhaps the city has already built its CH). Say you can get +2 production from the IZ adjacency. Then its +4 production from the IZ versus +3 from the Encampment. Now add craftsmanship, now its +6 production from the IZ versus +3 from the Encampment. If that city could only get +1 production for the IZ from adjacencies (say, from building it next to two other districts), then that becomes even for the Encampment (which means you should build the Encampment because it has side benefits the IZ does not have). Craftsmanship ups that to +2p, leaving us at +4p versus +3p and the other Encampment benefits. I'd say 1p extra versus the Encampment might still be worth building the actual Encampment, but its situational (like if it will help with strategic resources, or if you have a lot of Industrial or Military CS's, or what type of victory you are going for).

    Now lets say we're in the Industrial era. Same situation, either an IZ or an Encampment. Assume the city is also already covered by another Factory, so we won't build one here. IZ gets +2 from adjacency, and +2 from workshop and +100% adjacency from craftsmen for 6p. Encampment also gets 6p (Barracks+Armory+Military Academy) and 2 housing but is a bigger investment (unless possibly using Veterancy, which should be explored further).

    Looks like if you don't need the Factory in the Industrial era, or if you can't get very high adjacency bonuses for your IZ in the Medieval era, then you should probably build an Encampment.

    Pretty much this.

    City States are a big X factor in this decision too. If you are playing a heavy military game, and you have a lot of Military CS's, that might lean a bit more to Encampments. If you have a lot of Industrial CS's and are more interested in peaceful expansion, the IZ is better. More production for building districts and buildings is a very powerful bonus.

    I'd still say that you should probably build your CH first. Trade Routes providing just as much production, but also food and gold (from the CH adjacenies) and being able to place them in any city you want just swamp the Encampment (and pretty much everything else).

    I'd also consider placing your victory district before an Encampment, although it might be better to get the boost in production first.
     
  13. VicRatlhead5199

    VicRatlhead5199 King

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    But you're comparing the flat output of the encampment v the IZ when an added citizen can be working another tile and housing is the main limiting factor to growth prior to neighborhoods. So yeah, they aren't going to have the same flat production bonus as an IZ before the academy but it will add a citizen to your city where an IZ won't.

    I think encampments and harbors get overlooked because they're sort of "catch-all" districts that aren't great at any one thing but are pretty solid as a whole.
     
  14. knighterrant81

    knighterrant81 Warlord

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    Again, for most of the game (read - pre-industrial era), you gain +1 housing. This isn't enough to even get you under the cap. If you're in the 75% slowed growth, that +1 housing will get you into the 50% growth zone...until you grow again then you're back to 75% slow. And that will take you something like 20 turns to grow under the 50% cap anyway. Also, remember that new citizen probably isn't going to be working a fancy bonus tile. Those tiles are probably already being worked, so you're getting something like 1f/2p or 2f/1p - In 20 turns after you've built your first Encampment building. Also, citizens cost amenities.

    Housing is only worthwhile when it comes in large amounts, because you need to get back into the normal growth zone immediately and stay there for long periods to get a real benefit. Also, because citizens don't provide nearly as much Science as they used to in Civ 5 (and Science just isn't as strong as it was in Civ 5) and because specialists and GP's aren't very strong either (and specialists no longer generate GPs anyway) having a higher population just isn't that great. Districts are powerful and provide those GP points, so the real benefit of growing your city is gaining a new District slot. But remember, you're using a District slot to get that housing, so you're actually losing 3 housing as far as Districts are concerned. The Encampment only gives 2 housing in return, and you don't get that housing until the Industrial era. An Encampment is actually -2 Housing for most of the game (again, thinking from a District perspective).
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  15. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    I'm still a Civ6 noob, but in my recent game I found my Encampment to be useful.

    1. The Encampment was available very early. Using a bit of advice, I laid the foundation for the Encampment for one turn and then switched back to building early units. This locked in the cheap price and I finished it in only a few turns later in the game.

    2. Rounding out the early districts in my capital, I built a Campus, a Commercial District, and an Industrial District as they were unlocked by research. Having the encampment did not slow any of these down.

    3. After my initial 5 or so units, all of my units were built using the benefits from the Encampment. The early units went out to kill barbarians and neighbors and then returned for upgrades and reinforcements later.

    4. As has been mentioned, placing the Encampment closer to my borders meant that units were built in a better location.
     
  16. knighterrant81

    knighterrant81 Warlord

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    1. Sure, you can do that with an Encampment, but you can do that with any district, so it doesn't really serve as an argument for Encampments in particular.

    2. You had to wait another 3 pop to build them (or to lock them in at a low price), so it did actually slow you down. I don't know if you're not locking them in right when your population opens up a new "slot", though.

    3. Dirty secret of Civ 6 - many unit upgrades aren't all that worthwhile or are very situational (certainly less useful than Civ 5 upgrades). That could have been 7-8 units instead of 5. More units > unit XP. Especially since you can bully the AI with 1upt issues.

    4. I don't think having your units spawn at the Encampment are all that helpful. Mostly it just serves to make taking Encampment cities more annoying for the player.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  17. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    By the time I reached the necessary techs, I already had the necessary population. Thus, putting down an Encampment did not slow the placement of my Campus, Commercial District, or Industrial District. I did not build a Holy District (although I captured a couple). I also plopped down the other districts immediately and then returned to finish them so I realize that this is a universal benefit of the design.
    If the one turn spent plopping down the district (returning when I had time to finish) would have netted me an addition 2-3 units, I must truly be missing something. The crank out 2-3 units in a single turn exploit is not well advertised on the forums.
     
  18. knighterrant81

    knighterrant81 Warlord

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    We are talking about early game districts yes, but also mid-to-late game district placements in far-flung satellite cities. Once you are in the mid game, you are actually delaying your other districts to build an encampment.

    You were touting the benefits of XP. You have to finish the district and your first building (Barracks/Stable) to get those benefits. That production could have been used to build units instead.
     
  19. Tacgnol

    Tacgnol Warlord

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    OP here, just won my first game on Deity :crazyeye:, Domination as Spain, on a Huge Island Plates map, Epic speed.

    Once again, I didn't build a single Encampment all game. Sounds like I wouldn't need it on an islands map right, wrong half the world was 1 giant continent, and half the ocean was completely cut off so I had to shelve my epic 1-turn-conquest fleet of 6 Missile Cruiser Armadas and a Destroyer Armada and turn my marines into a proper army for the last 150 turn conquest slog. That said, I relied pretty heavily on units from Encampments I took from the AI in Paris and Nidaros.

    However it was a Huge map, Arabia didn't expand at all and I conquered half the world by the Renaissance, so I did a huge amount of mid-late game settling from the 1500s on. Colonized half the map, really fun for Spain. And I didn't build any encampments, at all. For the most part I was building Builders just to keep up with my territorial expansion, I also had pretty much an endless supply of trade routes so whenever a city had nothing it needed a Trader was usually the highest value item. Anyway in most of my colonies I ended up with only 1-2 Districts plus a Neighborhood in a couple of the most populous.

    Production wasn't even on the table, it took 30+ turns (Epic speed) to build a district in the better colonies, 50-80 in the brand new ones, using the policy wasn't an option as I needed the slots for war, I didn't even get harbors in most of them, I would start with a CD or Harbor depending which had more adjacency, build that and the first building, need a Sewer or more housing and go for a Campus or IZ in the couple that had good spots, somewhere get stuck churning out another Builder or 2, and then go for an EC if nothing else. It would have taken another 150 turns to develop those cities to the point of having room for extra production districts and I finished the tech and civic trees and would have won the Space Race 30 turns earlier if I'd wanted to.

    I mean I appreciated having the ones that I captured, the buildings are good, but the AI cheats and has nothing to do with all its production but build all the districts, when it's at all at a premium it's not even an option.
     
  20. greygamer

    greygamer Feudal Lord

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    Yes, harbours would be your go to district. You should be able to capture a lot of cities with just naval units on such a map and settlers for the rest.
     

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