encampments + ziggurats

[Arent11]

Usually I'm using campuses as 'victory' districts. However, I wanted to try something new & used encampments in combination with ziggurats. It worked out nicely, but was not spectacular.

You get a lot of great generals, which boost your army & have other uses. Additionally, you can keep up in tech using a few (not too many) ziggurats. Working them of course means you loose production, however you also gain production from your encampments, so that balances each other a little.
Later on I also build 'support' districts, commercial zones, a few industrial centers, campus & theatre districts.

Overall, it feels like a robust strategy. You have many great generals, a decent, highly experienced army, and you can keep up in tech.

 

[Victoria]

Nice... I guess one of the dangers is with the discovery of flight the ziggurats start creating tourism... a domination players dread.
How many did you use? Gilgamesh AI spams them big time as I am sure you know

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

I think a few Campi are necessary for the Great Scientists, unless you hard build those parts.

Edit: Why not Encampments and Campi and production tiles?

 

[DrCron]

Encampments are not needed, the AI is too bad at war for you to need great generals or more experienced units. The most important districts are, by far, the ones that give more trade routes (commercial hubs and harbors). Trade routes are the single most important element in the game, they give you everything you need to win. After that, industrial zones boost production more efficiently than encampments. You only need a few campuses (with good adjacency) to get the tech you need. Keep in mind tech advancement is way too fast in this game when you compare it to production.

 

[Arent11]

Nice... I guess one of the dangers is with the discovery of flight the ziggurats start creating tourism... a domination players dread.
How many did you use? Gilgamesh AI spams them big time as I am sure you know

Few. I don't want to sacrifice more production/housing/pop units than I gain from encampments. So only 1-2 per city.

I think a few Campi are necessary for the Great Scientists, unless you hard build those parts.

This is for a domination victory, not for a science victory. Usually I'm playing science victory, I just wanted to try something else.

Encampments are not needed, the AI is too bad at war for you to need great generals or more experienced units.

That is true. Maybe a patch will give the ai such tremendous bonuses that it might become necessary. However, if you are going for domination victory, you don't exactly need great scientists or large amounts of money either. You get a lot through pillaging & peace deals. Maybe such an encampment strategy might also be useful for multiplayer.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

Hmm, I misread it thinking it was for a Science Victory. If you go Domination, that seems a solid plan.

For people saying that Encampments or Great Generals aren't needed for a Domination win: strictly, they aren't, but then you don't need anything other than military and amenities to support your conquest. Culture, science and gold can come from conquered cities as a consequence. It's just that those other things may speed up your victory. Just like Encampments and Great Generals.

 

[DrCron]

Hmm, I misread it thinking it was for a Science Victory. If you go Domination, that seems a solid plan.

For people saying that Encampments or Great Generals aren't needed for a Domination win: strictly, they aren't, but then you don't need anything other than military and amenities to support your conquest. Culture, science and gold can come from conquered cities as a consequence. It's just that those other things may speed up your victory. Just like Encampments and Great Generals.

Encampments won't speed up your victory because you waste production on them that could be used on something more efficient. More trade routes = more money which can be used to maintain and upgrade units (or purchase more if needed). Industrial zones = more production to get armies (and anything else you may need) faster. Campuses = better units hence faster conquest (better units make a bigger difference than great generals). And by the time you get to pop 10 everywhere and you have free district spots here and there, you will also have enough population to make entertainment complexes necessary.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

If you think hard enough about it, you don't even need IZs, and only a few Commercial Hubs and a pair of Campi and the odd Entertainment Complex. It's enough to sustain your army, keep it up to date and not suffer amenity problems. If you conquer enough and raze some cities, luxuries might deal with war weariness.

 

[DrCron]

If you think hard enough about it, you don't even need IZs, and only a few Commercial Hubs

There's no thinking about it, just play the game. Production is the slowest element of the game, so you always need as much as you can get. And you can never have too many trade routes, since they give anything you can need.

 

[Arent11]

Industrial zones = more production to get armies (and anything else you may need) faster.

Maybe, I'm overlooking something, but shouldn't the combination of industrial zones' area effect + encampments give you more production/housing than spamming industrial zones everywhere(?)

More trade routes = more money which can be used to maintain and upgrade units (or purchase more if needed).

I never had problems to maintain or upgrade my army. In single player, you don't need many units, you need advanced & stronger units.

Campuses = better units hence faster conquest (better units make a bigger difference than great generals).

Which is why I combine encampments & ziggurats. Campuses give you science + great scientists. Encampments/ziggurats give you science + great generals.

 

[DrCron]

Maybe, I'm overlooking something, but shouldn't the combination of industrial zones' area effect + encampments give you more production/housing than spamming industrial zones everywhere(?)

IZs are still more efficient. It's extremely easy to get adjacency bonus for an IZ of at least +2, just from mines (the total is usually more, especially if you plan your districts ahead). Add a workshop and you get a minimum of +4 production with every IZ, with just one building inside. Encampments don't get production from adjacency and they need 2 buildings (barracks/stable + armory) to reach +3 production. So clearly the IZ gives you more production with a smaller investment.

 

[Arent11]

IZs are still more efficient. It's extremely easy to get adjacency bonus for an IZ of at least +2, just from mines (the total is usually more, especially if you plan your districts ahead). Add a workshop and you get a minimum of +4 production with every IZ, with just one building inside. Encampments don't get production from adjacency and they need 2 buildings (barracks/stable + armory) to reach +3 production. So clearly the IZ gives you more production with a smaller investment.

(1) I'm happy that you assess adjacency for IZs at +2, I would have said it is usually more, as you point out & you can increase it with certain policies
(2) That being said armories cost as much production as workshops, stables are much cheaper than workshops
(3) Most production comes from tile improvements. The additional housing might very well mean an additonal pop unit that is working a lumbermill or mine
(4) Later in the game you can still build military academies which give you +3 production/+1 housing and a discount on corps/army building (Btw. Does anyone know how much that is?)

So basically it boils down to:

(1) Industrial zones: adjacency bonus (Let's say 3-4 production) + workshop (2 production) = +5-6 production, maybe increased by policies
(2) Encampments: stable + armory + military academy = +6 production/+2 housing, discount on army production

 

[DrCron]

(1) I'm happy that you assess adjacency for IZs at +2, I would have said it is usually more, as you point out & you can increase it with certain policies
(2) That being said armories cost as much production as workshops, stables are much cheaper than workshops
(3) Most production comes from tile improvements. The additional housing might very well mean an additonal pop unit that is working a lumbermill or mine
(4) Later in the game you can still build military academies which give you +3 production/+1 housing and a discount on corps/army building (Btw. Does anyone know how much that is?)

So basically it boils down to:

(1) Industrial zones: adjacency bonus (Let's say 3-4 production) + workshop (2 production) = +5-6 production, maybe increased by policies
(2) Encampments: stable + armory + military academy = +6 production/+2 housing, discount on army production

You are not considering the moment in the game in your summary. IZs + workshops come WAY earlier than military academies. As a general rule I don't even consider military academies as a strategy element since by the time they are available I'm always snowballing so hard there's no way I can lose the game anymore. The extra pop is also irrelevant at that point.

Oh, and I always get the policy that doubles the adjacency bonus for IZs. And great engineers are more useful than great generals (since GGs are irrelevant in a game in which the AI has no idea how to war), which should also be considered.

 

[greygamer]

,,, And great engineers are more useful than great generals (since GGs are irrelevant in a game in which the AI has no idea how to war), which should also be considered.

How are they more useful? I looked through the bonuses and most are to do with wonders (a warmonger doesn't build wonders they capture them ), few will have an effect on how to war. As the "AI has no idea to war" aren't you arguing that great people are irrelevant anyway.

I manage fine without IZ tbh.

 

[Arent11]

You are not considering the moment in the game in your summary. IZs + workshops come WAY earlier than military academies. As a general rule I don't even consider military academies as a strategy element since by the time they are available I'm always snowballing so hard there's no way I can lose the game anymore. The extra pop is also irrelevant at that point.

But now we are talking about momentum & not anymore about absolute production. Since I know your (future) arguments & you know my (future) arguments, let's cut this short:

(1) In the end of the game encampments would be better
(2) You can rightfully argue that military academies come late & therefore we should concentrate on the early - mid game
(3) I can rightfully argue that baracks cost only 80 production. Workshops & Armories cost both 175 production & give the same amount of production, so we can ignore them. Using your calculation the adjacency of IZs is 2 production, barracks give 1 production & 1 housing. I would equate 1 housing at least with 1 production.
(4) You can rightfully argue that encampments + barracks means 80 production more than an industrial zone
(5) I can rightfully argue that encampments + barracks give 1 more great general point
(6) You can argue that this is a small advantage
(7) I can argue that encampments also give defense
(8) You can argue that in single player that is not important
(9) I can argue that in multiplayer that is a hell of an advantage

-> I think it boils down to:

(1) industrial zones need 80 less production, therefore have more 'momentum', they also give great engineers that can be used for certain wonders
(2) encampments provide early game more great general points, are better late game, they also give great generals that make your units stronger/give you more advanced units

 

[Victoria]

I manage fine without IZ tbh.

So do I ... I will build one or 2 IZ depending on victory, sometimes 0 but it does come down to momentum
I will also probably build 1-2 encampments at most but normally 0

industrial zones need 80 less production, therefore have more 'momentum',

'Momentum'?
I am going for a fast CV and need momentum. To me momentum as in the fastest way to victory.
How many turns will an IZ be of use to me what do I need it for? Do I want to push for it and loose some great writers?
Its a complicated thing but building IZ tend to slow my victory. At least thats how it feels.
Its a bit like the CD. At what stage are you building things because you like to be OP in them as opposed to them speeding up victory

I think I will revisit it more because I am not against IZ but I tried and discarded them after the nerf. Maybe I was too hasty but equally maybe I was right

 

[Arent11]

I think I will revisit it more because I am not against IZ but I tried and discarded them after the nerf. Maybe I was too hasty but equally maybe I was right

No, no, you're completely right. I personally would only build them in central places. There are usually more efficient things to do.

 

[DrCron]

I manage fine without IZ tbh.

You can alwyas "manage fine" in CIV 6. This game is extremely easy and one should always win, especially when going for domination since the AI is so bad at war. I'm usually talking about what's more efficient. My plan is always to win as quickly as possible.

I can argue that in multiplayer that is a hell of an advantage

I never play multiplayer, so you can assume that everything I say applies to single player only.

I would equate 1 housing at least with 1 production

I disagree. You have to wait for the population to grow. And if you have a harbor (lighthouse) and a granary you usually don't need the extra housing to have enough pop to work all the good tiles around your city.

I looked through the bonuses and most are to do with wonders (a warmonger doesn't build wonders they capture them )

Sure, but the AI sometimes doesn't build some very good wonders. You usually want the Colosseum to deal with amenities faster (especially if you have war weariness all game long), and if China isn't in the game the Colosseum might not be built at all. And, to my surprise, I played a bunch of deity games in which the AI didn't build the Forbidden Palace (arguably the best wonder in the game).

 

[Victoria]

@DrCron you said earlier a GG is useless because the AI cannot fight but you now say you want to win as quickly as possible. An early uber unit with general in tow will cut through said useless AI a lot faster from my experience.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

Regarding the 1 housing = 1 production, I have to disagree, especially since Barracks come so early. Often 1 housing equals 1 citizen, which means 1 more worked tile. In practice, that might equal a trade route (if you're willing to grow the city to fill that housing), or even one more district, if you're also building a Granary.

And Great Generals aren't something to overlook in Domination, even in SP. Not much for the strength bonus, but for the +1 movement, which will certainly speed up your conquest.