Encampments ?

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

That is probably true.

Promotions are so strong and each of them come with a heal as well so getting them quicker is very nice.

 

[Seek]

I also think the Encampment might be required if you're playing Tomyris to get two horsemen for the price of one per her LUA.

I was thinking this also, but in Marbozir's latest he got two without the encampment.

 

[Furycrab]

In most cases if you plan ahead well you can grab the eurkas along a certain path. More raw science will in pretty much every case mean faster teching. And faster teching mean you reach stuff like the industrial districts faster. Some eurkas may require you to waste prodution on unneeded stuff in order to get science and campuses generate great scientists who can give several eurkas each


I don't see what the vs come from. What I showed was that a campus even in the early game can ge a very big science boost. If you want to you can get both the encampment and the campus. In most cases campuses will help your production due to unlocking the industrial district and its buildings earlier.


I have not said science is overpowered. However campus will in most cases help your science rate. And having good science rate is a good thing.


Don't think you need to rush for science either.


That applies to the campus and holy district.

The vs comparison was that you somehow decided to convert units of science into science per pop for some reason... Like if I get the encampment, then get Sun Tzu, then get a free great work (early might I add), then start converting the whole thing into citizens worth of culture... I get... like 20 citizens worth of culture, 3 hammers, and 1 housing. If I just get a Barracks and work both slots. It just looks silly when really I'm just saying you get 1 hammer 4 culture, with two citizen slots for 2 more hammers and 2 culture, and a housing which will likely give me a pop and it's yields.

It's the whole loop around you did to describe it as if bigger numbers were going to make it seem more important, and you did it again in another thread... Instead of saying that the 2 adjacency campus + library + one of the three classical GS provides 5 science, with the option to get 4 more if you use both citizen slots, and slight more with later game cards... You had to divide the whole thing by 0.7.

 

[Zantetsuken]

I think I will really appreciate the encampment for the strategic defense value, cutting off a mountain pass or such, especially in multiplayer, plus I see myself playing aggressively but instead of stealing cities just get the pillage rewards and have them fix the tiles on their time before sweeping back in later, or maybe taking and returning a city in exchange for GPT

Could also be useful for fishing out extra adjaceny bonuses for Japan's restoration ability, or if you can manage to lock down Carthage for the extra trade routes, in which case encampments just kinda become a Jack of all trades sort of district that can kind of be tossed in some trash land you have

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

The vs comparison was that you somehow decided to convert units of science into science per pop for some reason... Like if I get the encampment, then get Sun Tzu, then get a free great work (early might I add), then start converting the whole thing into citizens worth of culture... I get... like 20 citizens worth of culture, 3 hammers, and 1 housing. If I just get a Barracks and work both slots. It just looks silly when really I'm just saying you get 1 hammer 4 culture, with two citizen slots for 2 more hammers and 2 culture, and a housing which will likely give me a pop and it's yields.

I made a comparison between the two major sources of science (population and campus) to prove that campuses are not a bad investment as some seems to think and that campuses in all cases can give a huge science boost.

Culture is more tricky because it have more major sources then science.

 

[Furycrab]

Culture is more tricky because it have more major sources then science.

Not early though. You don't get Artists till Renaissance. You don't get Musicians till industrial. The TQ is rather sad early when it only gets good adjacency from other Wonders. The Amphitheater is just 2 culture till you can actually fill it. The game seems designed to treat it at 1 for 1 in terms of other sources (Special Tile yields or CS) and you get less than half of it per pop compared to science. However the Monument offsets some of that early.

I don't think it's crazy to compare all the yields as somewhat comparable except for Food and gold, with the general assumption that you'll get something else of similar worth for your opportunity cost later. Especially considering that culture has it's full associated tree to it, and the Eureka system. So your exercise of conversion doesn't seem necessary in a discussion comparing the Campus to other districts.

Science had this effect of letting you get almost exponentially more science later from the same source in previous games. That's not completely dead, but not nearly of same impact because you always have this incredibly efficient route where if you do these often unrelated boost activities, you'll get more, and it's very often "non-science" yields that determine how fast you can get these boosts.

 

[Nikolai II]

I don't think I'll be building encampments, the opportunity cost seems to high.

So you don't want all the production then. Your own loss.

 

[Acken]

Encampment buildings also give housing. Not to be dismissed easily.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

So you don't want all the production then. Your own loss.

An encapment + barrack generate 1 production per turn and cost a minimum of 165 production (although you can get a 30% production bonus towards encampment but the cost tends to be alot higher then 165).

Encapment itself can generate production if you have military CS but a basic encampment + barrack have a long payback time in terms of production so you would not build an encampment + barrack only for the production.

Encampment buildings also give housing. Not to be dismissed easily.

In the early game it give +1 housing with the barracks/stable which is worth 2 farms.

Neither production or housing seems to be big reasons to build encampments.

The big things the encampment give is: the increase promotion rate, that it can fire upon enemies and block enemy units, great general points and production bonus to units with military CS.

The extra housing and production are more like bonuses then major reasons to spend a district slot and production on an encampment.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Encampments have not been used properly in any of the LPs since at Prince difficulty makes warring against the AIs too easy. We probably have a distorted view of their usefulness. At higher difficulty and with more aggressive AI there could be a much more serious military challenge. Encampments and the GG points they make will be much more relevant then. The barracks gives 1 housing and 1 production for 1 gold upkeep which can be useful in some situations. The encampment is probably a useful district in inland cities built to grab 2 or 3 luxuries but unable to build the aqueduct for housing. Building some farms and the encampment on a junk tile like desert could give enough housing and production to make the city struggle on until neighborhoods allow better growth. That city will never be great but the luxuries or strategic resources it grabs can be essential for other cities to grow and prosper with amenity bonuses.

To add to this, it's likely a land-grab city designed to keep it from a rival. The Encampment would help prevent that city from being a vulnerable target who want those resources.

 

[homan1983]

I saw in one of the lets play vids, someone was sending an early game trade route from his 2nd city to his capital. It was giving +4 production from districts. He had an encampment: one of the bonuses people aren't considering is that districts also give bonuses to trade routes.

So consider that for spending 5 turns early game, your other cities starting out with trade routes get an extra 2 hammers.

 

[Nefelia]

Strength matters alot +5 difference is pretty big so even if the samurai is more expensive then the legionary it is a better unit because quality is what matters.

For 180 hammers I could build two Swordsmen with 35 combat strength. You may be correct that +5 is significant in a one-on-one scenario, but in a two-on-one scenario, the advantage clearly goes to the Swordsmen.

Upgrading immediately will likely be the best option, assuming finances can handle the increased unit maintenance costs. However, zipping through the tech tree to get more advanced units will no longer be as much of an advantage as it was in previous Civ games.

Nobody would build their districts for housing only.

A library produce nearly the same amount of science as 3 citizens and with Hypathia it produce more science then 4 citizens. A campus district that produce 2 science from adjacency bonus also produce nearly the same amount of science as 3 citizens so that campus + a library is roughly worth 6 citizens and the great people points make it even more valuable.

Campus + library allow one specialist to work the campus for 2 extra science which again is nearly the same as 3 citizens.

So campus + library + specialist = 8-9 citizens in terms of science
+ 2 great scientist points + the ability to produce project for extra GSP.

Opportunity costs: ~2 Settlers; 1 Settler, 1 Builder, & 1 Scout; 2 Scouts, 2 Warriors, & 2 Slingers; 1 Holy Site & 1 Shrine; etc. There are so many viable options, and none of them are inherently superior to any other.

In the end, geography will decide. If your starting location has plenty of mountains and rainforests, an early campus may indeed be one of the best starting options. Mountains and forests may lead you to go down a religious route. And if there are no mountains at all, it may be better to build some scouts and troops and start hunting for cities that would be better suited for such specialization (while you figure out what to do with your capital).

As I mention above, a lead in science is not as large an advantage as it previously was, especially if you have had to sacrifice production, economic output, and other aspects of the game in the single-minded pursuit of campuses.

 

[RealHuhn]

I saw in one of the lets play vids, someone was sending an early game trade route from his 2nd city to his capital. It was giving +4 production from districts. He had an encampment: one of the bonuses people aren't considering is that districts also give bonuses to trade routes.

So consider that for spending 5 turns early game, your other cities starting out with trade routes get an extra 2 hammers.

Interesting. Is it +2 production per district? Do you know how the food yields are calculated?

 

[Zantetsuken]

For 180 hammers I could build two Swordsmen with 35 combat strength. You may be correct that +5 is significant in a one-on-one scenario, but in a two-on-one scenario, the advantage clearly goes to the Swordsmen.

Upgrading immediately will likely be the best option, assuming finances can handle the increased unit maintenance costs. However, zipping through the tech tree to get more advanced units will no longer be as much of an advantage as it was in previous Civ games.



Opportunity costs: ~2 Settlers; 1 Settler, 1 Builder, & 1 Scout; 2 Scouts, 2 Warriors, & 2 Slingers; 1 Holy Site & 1 Shrine; etc. There are so many viable options, and none of them are inherently superior to any other.

In the end, geography will decide. If your starting location has plenty of mountains and rainforests, an early campus may indeed be one of the best starting options. Mountains and forests may lead you to go down a religious route. And if there are no mountains at all, it may be better to build some scouts and troops and start hunting for cities that would be better suited for such specialization (while you figure out what to do with your capital).

As I mention above, a lead in science is not as large an advantage as it previously was, especially if you have had to sacrifice production, economic output, and other aspects of the game in the single-minded pursuit of campuses.

This. The game seems a lot more situational now, its hard to declare anything consistently superior over anything else.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Interesting. Is it +2 production per district? Do you know how the food yields are calculated?

Each district in destination city adds either 1 food or 1 production to domestic routes.
(They add different things to foreign routes)