Encouraging Tech Diversity

[GoodGame]

This is basically what the Rise and Rule (RAR) mod does for CIV3C.

The only negative of this is that you get a very dense tech tree with closely redundant units. Sometimes you spend more time surfing the tech tree than fighting, just to keep ahead of the tech race.

It's neat for 'flavour', since the extra units are different strengthed, and usually look different, but it seems to require extra computing power, at least on my system---making the turn loading time take annoyingly long sometimes.

In very limited doses, perhaps twice the units CIV3 has now, it'd be ok.

sir_schwick's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 1,424

Encouraging Tech Diversity
Problem: Curently units, infrastructural improvements, terrain enhancements, wonders, and governments require only one technology advance. Also, it is quite easy in some eras to beeline down one side of the tree and be okay. Here is an idea that would make it viable to still have one giant tech tree, but encourage even developement in exception of certain circumstances.

Concept: My concept is that all those things I mentioned above should require two or more prequesite techs to build, preferably from different branches of the tech trees. There would also be one or two tech simple alternatives that were not as good as the fully developed alternatives. A third benefit of the system is making current units better when more technology is developed.

Examples:
Warrior Code is something that should be train any professional soldiers. Without it there is no real concept of an organized, well-trained military for your civ. You would be stuck using Peasant Warriors(0/1/1), rather than Warriors(1/1/1). You would have to use Peasant Archers(1/1/1)(1/0/1), you get the idea. You would also not be able to build certain units such as Swordsmen or Chariots or Galleys without having a Warrior Code.

Before you could build a Courthouse, you would need Polytheism and Code of Laws. With Construction as well you could build a County Courthouse, which would have double the corruption reducing effect.

Chariots(1/1/2)(Wheeled) would require Bronze Working, The Wheel, Warrior Code, and Horses. With Iron you could build Armoured Chariots(1/2/2)(Wheeled), not realistic but makes for a good gameplay balance. In a Monarchy you would have Royal Chariots(1/1/2)(Wheeled)(+1HP). With both a Monarchy and Iron you could build Royal Armoured Chariots(1/2/2)(Wheeled)(+1HP).

To have a Monarchy you need Monarchy, Code of Laws, Currency. With Literature corruption and flip chance would be reduced.

Some ideas I have. Please add your own, especially for the rest of the tech tree.
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[GoodGame]

Before you could build a Courthouse, you would need Polytheism and Code of Laws. With Construction as well you could build a County Courthouse, which would have double the corruption reducing effect.

For city improvements, one tech per improvement is fine as is. But I like the idea of 'upgrading' city improvements for shields, if you have an 'advanced' converging tech like this: Construction+Code of Laws.

To have a Monarchy you need Monarchy, Code of Laws, Currency. With Literature corruption and flip chance would be reduced.

Monarchy=Monarchy simple. If you think it needs Currency, then you mod that into your own tech tree. As is Monarchy without those techs completely historical, even though we retroactively associate the two based on Medieval kings. It was a monarch that invented money. Just as a famous monarch is credited with inventing laws.

Modifiying governments slightly by advancing your tech seems ok to me. But again, build a library, get culture that blocks culture-flipping already. No need to overcomplicate the government when the tech tree already lets you achieve those goals.

 

[sir_schwick]

Maybe base units and improvements require one tech. Additional paralell techs would allow you to upgrade buildings and units for small shield cost. So four or five techs after the original you really start to see good effects of the improvement.

 

[GoodGame]

I just noticed this. Actually though it's part of the game play of the standard Civ to emphasis different branches of the Tech tree first, in each era. Even in the Ancient era, the order of the branches you choose to follow directs your civ into a different strategy.

e.g. head for Philosophy first to get one of the Writing-derived techs for free (Maps/Lit/etc...) to get Harbors/Libraries

or head for Religions to Monarchy for Conquest/Culture.

In Medieval, if you have the Great LIbrary, or don't need relion/science, it's smart to concentrate on the Metallurgy branch and look to conquer. But if you have to go Democracy instead (small number of cities), it's smart to avoid that branch for Printing Press to get to Democracy ASAP.

Same for Industrial----without Iron, you need to get the Rubber/Infantry branch ASAP, not waste time with the Oil branch.

Also, it is quite easy in some eras to beeline down one side of the tree and be okay.

 

[TheDS]

I have an idea of how to illustrate the "core tech" concept.

For each "core tech", like say Splitting the Atom, you have a number of "application techs", each with a single application of that core tech. Applications of Splitting the Atom might be:

Nuclear Reactors. This tech allows you to build nuclear power reactors, which can beef up your industry.

Atomic Bombs (and later, Hydrogen Bombs). I think we know the obvious uses of these.

Radioactive Dust. Pick a radioactive element with a halflife of a year or so and spread it by air, in dust form, over your local enemy city. Mecca will do nicely. (Oh, it's ok for them to plot this against NYC?) Next, everybody dies. A few years later, the place can be inhabited again.

Getting energy from nuclear power is pretty useful, and this has many applications, thus Nuclear Reactors tech is a "core tech", and these are some of the "application techs":

Nuclear-powered naval vessels. You get your choice of nuke submarine, carrier, or cruiser techs, each will give you the ability to build that unit.

Satellites, both for civilian and military uses. Again, you get a choice of these uses.

And the Spaceship engine might be nuclear powered (or fusion powered, which would be an offshoot of this).

Splitting the Atom might also be a required tech for Controlled Fusion, which is a core tech for lots of similar applications.

Hmmmm.....

You know, if you look at it in the right light, with your head turned just so, this looks almost exactly like the way it's already been implemented, except that instead of a bunch of techs, many of them apparently dead-ended, the official tech tree is compressed into a few dozen techs, many of which give you multiple benefits.

I guess the original poster didn't realize that's what was "wrong" with his game. Not that improvements needed multiple techs as requirements - because most already HAVE that - but that those multiple requirements were just hidden artfully in a manner so as not to confuse and alienate the intended audience of the game, which included the overwhelmingly sized and wealthed AVERAGE JOE statistic who doesn't want to read a 500 page novel just to take his first turn.

 

[rhialto]

Radioactive Dust. Pick a radioactive element with a halflife of a year or so and spread it by air, in dust form, over your local enemy city. Mecca will do nicely. (Oh, it's ok for them to plot this against NYC?) Next, everybody dies. A few years later, the place can be inhabited again.

Bad taste. Regardless of any good ideas that may have been in your post, I stopped reading here. Frankly, I haven't time for this kind of racism.

No, it's not ok for them to plot this kind of thing on NYC, and two wrongs do not make a right. This kind of thinking is exactly what led to WW1.

In addition, your science is grossly inaccurate regarding the effects of radioactivity. Any level of radioactivity strong enough to make 'everyone die' certainly won't dissipate in a few years. A few hundred maybe.

 

[sir_schwick]

I was the original poster and a long time ago tried proposing an applied research approach. It did not take very well then, leading me to think that what is a good idea would not sell well. I am just telling you because it is anecdotal proof of why I proposed this.

 

[Synergy67]

I like the idea of multiple tech levels to upgrade technologies. I even more like the idea of parallel tech research. I’m not sure what it would do to the tech tree, but I’d like to see at any one time my nation researching something new in five or six categories, and it’s not all science, per se, really, though it is all funded by gold/beakers.

Areas of possible parallel research:

Philosophy/Politics

Religion (has a huge role in national behavior and direction)

Military (more the organization or concept of military than something like gunpowder allowing musketmen)

Math & Physics

Resource techs/chemistry (includes discovering and improving resources, metals use, gunpowder, etc.)

Sea tech (might cover ship tech as well as development of harbors, fisheries, offshore platforms, etc.)


At any one time, several or even all of these areas (I’m sure I missed some others) could be researching at whatever weight I set the slider for each to for each. But as techs enable one another in a lot of cross-effects, I might race ahead in one or some areas for a while, but will eventually have few or no choices for progression without studying other areas and bringing them up to speed. I would also be able to skip whole chunks of the tech tree and not be able to do or build certain things, or have any cultural concept or desire for certain political and religious forms of practice, but still be able to progress along a different path with different ideologies and methods.

Because of parallel researching, techs might need to be more numerous and incremental. Because your science money is spread around more, techs might take longer to research in general individually, and finishing at all different rates. Trading of techs should be less easy and limited--not sure how to implement that feature though. Any ideas how a parallel tech system might work and how tech trading could be handled more realistically?

Schwick, do you have a link to your long ago thread on applied research?

 

[sir_schwick]

An idea would be that you could only trade applications of technology, not the base technoloyg itself. Technology assisstance would simply reduce the tech time needed for broad(non-apllied) research. This would also make it so you could sell weapons techs, but not the good stuff.

As for the thread, I highly doubt it. A few weeks ago I deleted all subscriptions that were not active in the last month. I am sure that thread was in there because the last time I saw the subject was beginning of summer in US.

 

[Synergy67]

Sir S.: You can delete your own postings here? Explain. Or do you mean that because you are not subscribed to the thread, it would be very difficult for you to find it here now. I mean, threads four and five years old are stored here. How is it yours would not be?

 

[sir_schwick]

i deleted the subscription and do not remember the title of the thread. It still exists, somewhere in the archive.

 

[GoodGame]

I had another thought on this? Why not more optional branches per era? And why not ALTERNATIVE trees for advancing an era?

i.e. Optional = not necessary.
Alternative = a separate viable tree---as long as you complete one of them, you complete the era.

sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels

sir_schwick's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 1,477

Encouraging Tech Diversity
Problem: Curently units, infrastructural improvements, terrain enhancements, wonders, and governments require only one technology advance. Also, it is quite easy in some eras to beeline down one side of the tree and be okay. Here is an idea that would make it viable to still have one giant tech tree, but encourage even developement in exception of certain circumstances.

 

[sir_schwick]

That would be the preferred solution, but I have encountered resistance with that one too. But try anyway, maybe ppl have changed their minds.