End of Communism in Eastern Europe Quiz

[Vrylakas]

Mîtiu Ioan wrote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Vrylakas
7. Well, we've got east Germany and Romania; what other state
was a major holdout...until November, 1989?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tchechoslovakia?

Yes! Gustav Husak (Erich Honecker's closest ally) in Czechoslovakia also banned peretroika-tainted Soviet periodicals.

Anyway - thanks for the picture.

No problem. I have a few from that trip, though I think attachment limits preclude me from posting them. That was an exciting time, and despite the danger everyone was very helpful. One woman in Timisoara went very far out of her way to help us find some food as I recall, and a family took us in for several days when no local hotels in Arad would. Of course, I had to show up after the warm spell so there was solid ice everywhere from melted snow of the previous week... In Bucuresti when the electricity went out around 8.00 p.m. some guy walked us a very long distance in the dark to the train station. Three people were shot dead in the main square in Arad our first night there, and we stayed in (that first night) the home of the city's former Securitate chief, since given to a youth organization. I even managed to wander into the fortress on the Mures River in Arad before some nervous soldiers escorted me out...

And related with exageration - in Ceausescu trial was mentioned the number of ... 60.000 deads !!

I recall. All of Europe was echoing with stories of hundreds of thousands of Romanians dead. Still, it was bloody enough as it was...

Now: I'll give you a hint for Question # 6 that you'll likely get: This country received southern Dobrudja back from Romania at the end of WW II. Now do you get it...?

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

Originally posted by Vrylakas
Now: I'll give you a hint for Question # 6 that you'll likely get: This country received southern Dobrudja back from Romania at the end of WW II. Now do you get it...?

Ooo - yes - Bulgaria.

And at Q21 - probably the "precedent" was disolve of all Securitate's structures ( not a really wise act BTW ... ) and arrestation of its commander - gen I. Vlad.

Regards

 

[Vrylakas]

Mîtiu Ioan wrote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Vrylakas
Now: I'll give you a hint for Question # 6 that you'll likely get: This country received southern Dobrudja back from Romania at the end of WW II. Now do you get it...?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ooo - yes - Bulgaria.

Yes! Right on. Bulgaria's liberation from Zhivkov and the communists began when ethnic Turks who were being deported by the tens of thousands to Turkey rioted and were shot down by the Durjava Sigurnost', the Bulgarian secret police, in early November 1989. The first beginnings of an opposition came from environmentalist groups who began protesting against what the UN called the most polluted municipality in Europe in northern Bulgaria. Their protests turned to larger political issues and many had high hopes they could topple the communists, but their protests fizzled so a younger cadre of communists led by Mladanov launched what amounts to a palace coup that ousted Zhivkov.

And at Q21 - probably the "precedent" was disolve of all Securitate's structures ( not a really wise act BTW ... ) and arrestation of its commander - gen I. Vlad.

Yes again! After watching the loyal Securitate fight so viciously in the Romanian Revolution, the Hungarians figured it would be a good idea to disarm the Hungarian communist militia. The Army went door-to-door to collect all the weapons this militia had stored since the 1950s.

Good job Ioan! Thanks for wrapping this one up!

 

[klazlo]

I should have known that you will show up with something like this quiz! It's really great again!
I would like to add some points to the picture basically relating to Hungary though.

For Hungarians, Munkásörökség = Securitate.

Actually its name is not "Munkásörökség" but "Munkásõrség". But the point is that even if there were similarities with the Romanian Securitate it was far less effective. It was organized after 1956 as some weird "national guard" and its main function was the representation of communist power (towards the citizens and not for the "imperialist powers") with public marching in socialist holidays. It was never related to some kind of internal secret service like the Secu (Ioan can correct me ) and had far less members. The only time when there was some "need" for this was in 1988-89, but they were shocked and although some of their leaders would really like to beat everbody up they were not used. (When the rallies were held to cease them in one of the rallies I was one of the speekers. I spoke to the "crowd" from the top of the wall of a "Munkásõrség" barrack and those guys were inside with their guns but they were not hostile rather miserable - I guess they had to face a lot of problems in that days.)

The minority connection of course that spurred the massacre in Timisoara was the attempted arrest of the Hungarian Reformist priest Tökés László.

This is a very sensitive point of the Hungarian memory and in a weird way it also works against Hungary as well. Tökés gained such a huge reputation in Hungary from his role in the Romanian revolution that he completely got out of control and he is now one of the Hungarian hawks in Transylvania. Believe me, he has done as much bad for Hungarians since 1989 as good.

8. In the 1980s, which of all the European communist states was considered the most liberal?
Hungary?
No - one was considered even more liberal.

There could be more liberal states, but Hungary was definitely the "most cheerful barrack" (legvidámabb barakk) in the Eastern Camp!

The American expression is "kicked upstairs". Kádár was "promoted" to a new party ceremonial post, effectively removing him from power but in such a way that it looked like it was honor.

That's a hundred percent true and Kádár understood it also (he was not dumb at all) and after this he did not appear in public too much. As a frown of history he died in the very same day when the Hungarian high court declared the trial of Imre Nagy (Hungarian prime minister in 1956 who was executed later by the Kádár regime with Soviet pressure) as a communist conspiracy.

You're confusing the dam project, which although a communist-designed mess didn't really hit any strong resistance in Hungary until the early 1990s. The Hungarian government finally cancelled the project but a Hague Court ruling brought by a suit filed by the Slovaks forced the Hungarians to continue.

The dam project was the first nation-wide resistance against the socialist rule in Hungary. It started in the mid-eighties as a green critique. I remember that for years this was the only "political" issue that could be challenged and (saying with Yoda ) challanged it was! The dam became the symbol of the communism/socialism in Hungary (regardless of the economic or environmental pros and cons) and the first street rallies were organized by this. It was stopped after 1990 but since it was actually two separate projects (one in Hungary and one in Slovakia) and the Slovaks (Meciar) did not stop it, so it became a huge mess of political and legal issues. The Hague Court finally made a decision that could be interpreted in both countries as victory. The dam still has a very strong political context and if someone would argue for finishing it it would sound in Hungary as if this person would deny the whole transition.

Well that's it and thanks for enhancing the community's knowledge about the former Eastern Block.

Cheers,
laci

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

Originally posted by klazlo
It was never related to some kind of internal secret service like the Secu (Ioan can correct me ) and had far less members.

"Securitate" ( Full name : Security of State ) was in fact a complex organism which included :
- teritorial guard units composed mainly by conscripts - like French "jandarmerie";
- technological espionage;
- counter-espionage;
- somekind of police for most dangerous crimes ( serial killers, kidnapping, big economical fraud etc );
- special forces for guard the politicians and public institutions;
- at least, but most notorious in western propaganda, a structure to fight against "foreign propaganda and its internal supporters which want to overthrone the socialist governement of Romania".

The cynical fact is the number of "securitate" officers was hardly overestimated - it was something between 45.000 - 60.000 people for all this departaments. The number of officers in the last departament was something between 5500-6500. But here was included some logistical and internal structure so probably there was something like 3500-4500 officers to a population of 23 milions - and most of them try to avoid this because to work in the last departament wasthe worse-payed job.
The explanation that Ceausescu control the country and stay in power only because of "Securitate" action is a hoax. In fact this service was more effective outside the border of Romania that inside. Many "disidents" exagerated the power of Securitate to excuse their cowardness ...
The true is that during 1965-1980 Romania had one of its finest economical period in history. And many people really like Ceausescu this time. If a election would that place in 1975 undoubtely Ceausescu and the commies would get 70% of votes - belive me !!
And when the economical situation get worse most of the people realise that they don't have the rigth to criticise this or to peacefully change the leaders so the popular support erroded faster ...

Tökés gained such a huge reputation in Hungary from his role in the Romanian revolution that he completely got out of control and he is now one of the Hungarian hawks in Transylvania. Believe me, he has done as much bad for Hungarians since 1989 as good.

KLaszlo will probably be angry for this but the fact is that for Tokes is perfectfully true what Marx said about Bakunin ( If I'm remember well ) : Man like him is very usefull in the fisrt day of a revolution but in the second you should shot him to avoid any trouble. Tokes is an extremist which in fact doesn't seem to be very preocupied with the result of his action.


Regards

 

[Vrylakas]

*Whew* I'm back after a long and messy trip through western New York and Toronto. I hate my car right now...

Klazlo wrote:

I should have known that you will show up with something like this quiz! It's really great again!
I would like to add some points to the picture basically relating to Hungary though.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Hungarians, Munkásörökség = Securitate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually its name is not "Munkásörökség" but "Munkásõrség".

D'oh! That's right, örökség means "heritage". BTW, I can't replicate the long "ö" on my keyboard in a way that it shows up here. *^&%! Western-centrist Microsoft!

But the point is that even if there were similarities with the Romanian Securitate it was far less effective. It was organized after 1956 as some weird "national guard" and its main function was the representation of communist power (towards the citizens and not for the "imperialist powers") with public marching in socialist holidays. It was never related to some kind of internal secret service like the Secu (Ioan can correct me ) and had far less members. The only time when there was some "need" for this was in 1988-89, but they were shocked and although some of their leaders would really like to beat everbody up they were not used. (When the rallies were held to cease them in one of the rallies I was one of the speekers. I spoke to the "crowd" from the top of the wall of a "Munkásõrség" barrack and those guys were inside with their guns but they were not hostile rather miserable - I guess they had to face a lot of problems in that days.)

Yes, it certainly was less effective - but designed for the same thing, to keep the commies in power if the army betrayed the regime (as it did in 1956). Wasn't there a comedy film in 1990 or so with Eperjes Károly about how incompetent they were?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The minority connection of course that spurred the massacre in Timisoara was the attempted arrest of the Hungarian Reformist priest Tökés László.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a very sensitive point of the Hungarian memory and in a weird way it also works against Hungary as well. Tökés gained such a huge reputation in Hungary from his role in the Romanian revolution that he completely got out of control and he is now one of the Hungarian hawks in Transylvania. Believe me, he has done as much bad for Hungarians since 1989 as good.

Yes, I recall what a loudmouth he's become. I had the chance to hear him speak once when he came to my university in Pécs.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're confusing the dam project, which although a communist-designed mess didn't really hit any strong resistance in Hungary until the early 1990s. The Hungarian government finally cancelled the project but a Hague Court ruling brought by a suit filed by the Slovaks forced the Hungarians to continue.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The dam project was the first nation-wide resistance against the socialist rule in Hungary. It started in the mid-eighties as a green critique. I remember that for years this was the only "political" issue that could be challenged and (saying with Yoda ) challanged it was! The dam became the symbol of the communism/socialism in Hungary (regardless of the economic or environmental pros and cons) and the first street rallies were organized by this. It was stopped after 1990 but since it was actually two separate projects (one in Hungary and one in Slovakia) and the Slovaks (Meciar) did not stop it, so it became a huge mess of political and legal issues. The Hague Court finally made a decision that could be interpreted in both countries as victory. The dam still has a very strong political context and if someone would argue for finishing it it would sound in Hungary as if this person would deny the whole transition.

I got into a heated argument with a Slovak in Hungary about this project. It was quite clear it had become so politicized that the actual environmental effects were being obscured. A friend (Romanian friend, actually) summarized the situation best once when we were on top of the cathedral in Esztergom looking across the Danube, when he compared the two countries' relation to the unfinished bridge that stretches across to Sturovo...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The American expression is "kicked upstairs". Kádár was "promoted" to a new party ceremonial post, effectively removing him from power but in such a way that it looked like it was honor.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's a hundred percent true and Kádár understood it also (he was not dumb at all) and after this he did not appear in public too much. As a frown of history he died in the very same day when the Hungarian high court declared the trial of Imre Nagy (Hungarian prime minister in 1956 who was executed later by the Kádár regime with Soviet pressure) as a communist conspiracy.

Here's where that S.O.B. belongs:

 

[Vrylakas]

Mîtiu Ioan wrote:

KLaszlo will probably be angry for this but the fact is that for Tokes is perfectfully true what Marx said about Bakunin ( If I'm remember well ) : Man like him is very usefull in the fisrt day of a revolution but in the second you should shot him to avoid any trouble. Tokes is an extremist which in fact doesn't seem to be very preocupied with the result of his action.

No, I think most Hungarians would agree with you. It's like Walesa; he was the right man for the job back in 1980-81 and again in 1987-88, but he should have just faded away. As a president, he just f***ed everything up and guaranteed that the country stood still for nearly a decade. His ridiculous conservatism and reliance on the Church, and his refusal to deal with anyone (including prime ministers) who didn't absolutely agree with his every word did great damage to Poland. I was in the crowd when he was inaugurated in December 1990 and we were all supposed to be happy because there was a freely-elected president in Poland for the first time since 1926 but why did they elect this half-literate moron? Revolutionaries should do their greatest deeds, then fade away into the sunset. Unfortunately, most of them become too egotistical (like the dictator of San Marcos in Woody Allen's film Bananas) and begin to believe that only they can save the country and run it. I think it was Oscar Wilde who said that if there's only one man who can save the country, then it's not a country worth saving...

 

[klazlo]

Originally posted by Mîtiu Ioan

KLaszlo will probably be angry for this but the fact is that for Tokes is perfectfully true what Marx said about Bakunin ( If I'm remember well ) : Man like him is very usefull in the fisrt day of a revolution but in the second you should shot him to avoid any trouble. Tokes is an extremist which in fact doesn't seem to be very preocupied with the result of his action.

I won't be angry because my opinion is exactly the same!
Tokes is some kind of hero (or "saint" because of his church position ) for a lot of Hungarians but I think that even if he had some credits for his role in the early part of the revolution, he has done a lot for NOT making "peace" in Romania between the Romanians and the Hungarians. I think that he is really a crazy extremist (just like Miklos Duray in Slovakia, who is a stupid jerk) making nothing but trouble. Fortunately his fame is slowly and surely getting eroded in Hungary also, and I hope that after the fall of the right-wing government he won't get financial support from Hungary.

 

[klazlo]

Originally posted by Vrylakas
Mîtiu Ioan wrote:

KLaszlo will probably be angry for this but the fact is that for Tokes is perfectfully true what Marx said about Bakunin ( If I'm remember well ) : Man like him is very usefull in the fisrt day of a revolution but in the second you should shot him to avoid any trouble. Tokes is an extremist which in fact doesn't seem to be very preocupied with the result of his action.

No, I think most Hungarians would agree with you. It's like Walesa; he was the right man for the job back in 1980-81 and again in 1987-88, but he should have just faded away. As a president, he just f***ed everything up and guaranteed that the country stood still for nearly a decade. His ridiculous conservatism and reliance on the Church, and his refusal to deal with anyone (including prime ministers) who didn't absolutely agree with his every word did great damage to Poland. I was in the crowd when he was inaugurated in December 1990 and we were all supposed to be happy because there was a freely-elected president in Poland for the first time since 1926 but why did they elect this half-literate moron? Revolutionaries should do their greatest deeds, then fade away into the sunset. Unfortunately, most of them become too egotistical (like the dictator of San Marcos in Woody Allen's film Bananas) and begin to believe that only they can save the country and run it. I think it was Oscar Wilde who said that if there's only one man who can save the country, then it's not a country worth saving...

Actually I was about to cite Walesa as similarity. I still have a "Solidarity" badge somewhere from that period...
But you're right: Walesa was really a shame when getting into power. These guys are the cursed heritage of socialism... We have a lot of morons from 1956 who claim that they were there and fought the Soviets, well some of them maybe, but with so many "freedom fighters" that you can see today we should have win that fight easily! Just like the partisans after WWII...

 

[klazlo]

Originally posted by Vrylakas

D'oh! That's right, örökség means "heritage". BTW, I can't replicate the long "ö" on my keyboard in a way that it shows up here. *^&%! Western-centrist Microsoft!


I can feel your pain, in my office computer I don't have Hungarian characters either.



Yes, it certainly was less effective - but designed for the same thing, to keep the commies in power if the army betrayed the regime (as it did in 1956). Wasn't there a comedy film in 1990 or so with Eperjes Károly about how incompetent they were?


Man you are great! I was about to refer that movie but I simply cannot remember the title. It was huge! Eperjes is one of the best actors in Hungary, he had a lot of great films referring to the socialist era, it's just too bad that he gives public support for some politicians. He is quite religious I think and one reward from the politics was when he could go with the Hungarian official delegation to visit the pope.


I got into a heated argument with a Slovak in Hungary about this project. It was quite clear it had become so politicized that the actual environmental effects were being obscured. A friend (Romanian friend, actually) summarized the situation best once when we were on top of the cathedral in Esztergom looking across the Danube, when he compared the two countries' relation to the unfinished bridge that stretches across to Sturovo...

That bridge was finished last year if I remember correctly, but the relations did not change too much and if Meciar will come back in Slovakia it will be even worse.