England or Britain? Also, where are the Celts?

[Teabeard]

The problem with just having England (and not Wales, Scotland, etc.) is that you might offend people in those countries. It is like calling The Netherlands "Holland". Do you see what I mean? Imagine if the Danes got a civ and all other Scandinavian countries were neglected. Don't you think the people of those countries would be angry? How is this any different than the other nations that make up the British Isles being neglected, yet England gets included?

I'm just saying I think Scotland, Wales, and Ireland have done enough to warrant their own civs if England has. However, if it is not possible to include these as civs then it is absolutely essential that England be renamed to Britain, or a generic "Celts" civ be included to cover those nations.

 

[Adso de Fimnu]

By all means it should be Britain and not England. England was a regional power at best; the United Kingdom was one of the great world powers.

But I'm not sure there should be a "Celt" civilization. While the Celts were a major group in Europe at one time, having a "Celt" civ would be like having a "Finno-Ugric" civ or an "Algonquian" civ: they're a group of related peoples, but not really a "civilization" per se.

 

[mitsho]

I think you can see that there are countless threads on that topic, and Firaxis won't change it because of one more thread...

It depends:
If Firaxis wants to add a Celtic, Scottish or Irish civ in one of the expansion, they'll include England. Otherwise, Victoria and ol' Lizzi will lead Britain.

About the Celts: They are a nice inclusion, the question is just how, and not really in the vanilla game..

mfG mitsho

 

[Janos]

Yeah, the Irish, Scottish, and Welsh will get really offended because they aren't included in a video game. I would prefer it to be United Kingdom too, but seeing as Wales, Ireland, and Scotland haven't exactly lighted the world with their imperial dominance in the past or present, i don't disagree with Firaxis' decision not to include them all.

 

[Atrebates]

About the Celts: They are a nice inclusion, the question is just how

Check out 'Consistent Civs or evolution' or 'Civilizations EVOLVE into others' (I advise the former as it's my thread )
Can 4-5 England-centric civs be justified though? don't get me wrong, I like the idea but...
Janos, yep absolutely right.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Though I'm half-Scottish, it has definitely got to be England. It was England under whom the Union took place as she was the dominant Power and control directed from London. The story of the English is far longer and more interesting than that of the British post-1705 and as for the earlier Britons, they were replaced and are perhaps only found in some areas of Wales, Cornwall and Britanny.

 

[mitsho]

@atrebates I know that theory/concept and I absolutely dispise it. I do not like it, I like my civs to stay the same... And I nowhere said that I want 5 'britain' civs.

Another solution may be the leaders in civ4. They've chosen Victoria to represent Britain, and Lizzi represents 'England'. If they really change more (city lists for example), both types of persons will be satisfied.

mitsho

 

[eddie_verdde]

How is this any different than the other nations that make up the British Isles being neglected, yet England gets included?

I'm just saying I think Scotland, Wales, and Ireland have done enough to warrant their own civs if England has.

And how would The Celts contribute to solve this issue? I thought that the celtic living in the british isles were only the descendants of the last celtics, whose civilization spread through central Europe (France, switzerland, spain, italy). I've never understood why the celtic cities in previous games were irish and british locations...during the celtic "Golden Age" they had cities all over central Europe, then they were pushed back to the british islands where some of its culture remains today.

So, I don't think that Celts should replace England, Wales, Britain or whatever.

However, I agree that there should be a British Civ instead of a English Civ. The history of England can hardly be separated from the history of Wales, Scotland and Ireland.
The name England comes after the Angles, who came from Northern Germany and invaded the islands. And who lived in the islands? The Britons.

To sum up, what do English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish have in common? They all live in the British Islands, so there should be a British civ instead of a English Civ.

 

[Crayton]

How about the Britons?
I guess they would fit less as an 'all-encompassing' civ than the Celts.
The Britons would be a Celtic-Romano hybrid; yet, that would leave out the German influence on England.
Celts + Romans + 'Anglo-Saxons'(Germans) + Vikings + Normans= England
It would be hard to define a civ that geographically represent Ireland and Britain, except for the more modern United Kingdom.
Why not change England to Britain?

 

[Himalia]

Though I'm half-Scottish, it has definitely got to be England. It was England under whom the Union took place as she was the dominant Power and control directed from London. The story of the English is far longer and more interesting than that of the British post-1705 and as for the earlier Britons, they were replaced and are perhaps only found in some areas of Wales, Cornwall and Britanny.

Well said however i feel that you have missed the following The British Empire was the world's first global power and history's largest Empire; by 1921, it held sway over a population of 500–600 million people (about a quarter of the world's population at the time) and covered over 15 million square miles. (roughly 35% of the world's habitabal total land area) The conclusion is this alone makes there entry into the game as good as a forgone conclusion

Since the term "English" explicitly refers to peoples who arrived on the island of Great Britain relatively recently, it is anachronistic to talk of England's prehistory or ancient history which, though rich and interesting, are properly dealt with as part of the history of the island of Great Britain as a whole.

England is sometimes mistakenly used to refer to the entire United Kingdom, the island of Great Britain, or the British Isles. This may offend people from other parts of the UK. Frequently the English use the less-specific "Britain" or "the UK", even when "England" is technically correct as it is the ruleing country.

I myself have a Scottish heritage and at the end of the day England is the correct name to use. For a specific sceanrio yes include all of them and i also feel that if the term United Kingdom was used that would be ok. Just wondering how they would put the cities in order. London would have to be the capital still and thats bound to offend someone.

 

[Urederra]

Yeah, the Irish, Scottish, and Welsh will get really offended because they aren't included in a video game. I would prefer it to be United Kingdom too, but seeing as Wales, Ireland, and Scotland haven't exactly lighted the world with their imperial dominance in the past or present, i don't disagree with Firaxis' decision not to include them all.

I agree with you. You can change England to UK very easily in the game. And also include some UK city names as well. Independence has its advantages and disadvantages. When you choose to be a separate country you have to cope with the disadvantages of secession as well.

@ teabeard. As far as the celts is concern, I suppose that you have celt heritage. If you do, you should know better about the celts, and in particular, that there were in all around Europe, not only in Britain. And there are more than enough civs with celtic heritage in the game, such as the English, the Spanish (Galicia) the French (Brittany). Too much overlaping in the game if you include celts, if you ask me.

 

[Kyriakos]

Since the term "English" explicitly refers to peoples who arrived on the island of Great Britain relatively recently, it is anachronistic to talk of England's prehistory or ancient history which, though rich and interesting, are properly dealt with as part of the history of the island of Great Britain as a whole.

I wouldn't say that england's ancient history is rich, i dont know how you mean that; if egypt/greece/persia/rome etc have a rich ancient history would you put england in the same league?

as for prehistory: the game doesn't deal with it (and rightly so, for there can only be speculation about it), although it is a very interesting subject for a mod

I would tend to agree that britain should be the civ, although i am happy with england anyway, britain would just add the other civs in the isles under that umbrella.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

One could in similary way question if Soviet or Russia should be included... To me it doesn't matter that much, but I think I'd probably prefer Russia and England. When in unions they've been the dominating power all along, not like in Scandinavia where the power has shifted between the countries throughout history.

 

[bjblue]

It should most deffinately be English. It was the English who defeated the welsh and faught wars with scotland and ireland for nearly 700 years until the union of the crowns in the 18th century.
By the twelth century Wales was nothing more than a province of England and made no Impact on global affairs at all. The scots were under (and remain) under English domminance for most of their national existence, excepting a few short interludes of rebellion and attempts to govern themselves which ultimately failed due to the overwhelming English influence from the south.

The "British" Empire was only possible because of the foundations laid down by the English and the strength of the Royal Navy...which was an undoubdtedly English one. It was the English Government who colonised North America (as well as the french and other continentals) but the Scots, Irish and Welsh did not have any colonies of their own (besides a failed Scottish attempt in Central America..which lasted about five years).
At the height of the "British" Empire it was controlled from London by Englishmen and the "Britishness" was mearly a name invoked to keep the Scots happy. Every trait associated with Britishness from Tea through to the "old boy" stiff uppper lip chaps is really just English.

As an Englishman living in Scotland I think the scots will probably detest me even more for the above...but if most of my scotish friends were asked they would probably admit that they really wouldn't like the idea of being grouped together (even in a game) with the English...we are after all "the Auld Enemy".

Whats worse...we probably deserve everything they say about us too.

 

[Urederra]

It was the English Government who colonised North America (as well as the french and other continentals) .

By reading this post and others like the one who wants polinesia to be in the game, I have the impression that the spanish never reached America.

St. Augustine is the oldest north american city. http://www.ci.st-augustine.fl.us/ It was founded by the Spanish, like San Francisco, Los Angeles, Las Vegas and many other cities. I don't know if you wanted to include the spanish in the "other continentals" but my feeling is that you forgot who colonized north america earlier than the english.

I Agree with you in the rest of your post, though. England is fine to me, Britain could be also fine, but people are more used to England. Not in Scottland, as I can see, but it is what is used in the rest of the world.

I suppose that greeks also could complain because the name of their country in the game should be Hellas, not Greece. But they don't complain, mainly because they know that it is only a game and they are not so picky about the names.

 

[Teabeard]

@ teabeard. As far as the celts is concern, I suppose that you have celt heritage. If you do, you should know better about the celts, and in particular, that there were in all around Europe, not only in Britain. And there are more than enough civs with celtic heritage in the game, such as the English, the Spanish (Galicia) the French (Brittany). Too much overlaping in the game if you include celts, if you ask me.

Well, consider that in a civ3 expansion Firaxis included Byzantines as a Civ despite the fact both Rome and the Greeks were already included. Talk about overlapping. If Byzantium (with Greece and Rome) can be included, why can't Celts? Someone could also argue that Netherlands is actually Germanic and overlaps with Germany, or that Portugal and Spain overlap each other.

Where do you draw the line?

But as for civ accomplishments, consider that Irish monks saved Catholicism and many great works of literature from dying out when the germanic barbarians conquered the Roman empire. Consider also that St. Brendan may well have been the first European to the new world.

 

[HourlyDaily]

Quote "I suppose that greeks also could complain because the name of their country in the game should be Hellas, not Greece. But they don't complain, mainly because they know that it is only a game and they are not so picky about the names".

And because it is easily modded. Calling what is essentially England, Britain is not going to work for me becuase raiding the English from the North is the most fun I've ever had in Civ

As I've said before, Celtic history is as rich (I'm not saying advanced) as any of the civs included in the game - but it took place in oral form rather than the preodminantly written culture of Egypt, Greece etc.

I've said it before but Celt civilizations still exist today, despite having small populations the Celts have exported people to many of the English colonies and played a big role in their organisation. I read somewhere that 11 of the first 12 American Presidents were of Scots extraction. Now I grant you that many people living in Brit countries do not identify themselves as Celts but you might be surprised how often the legacy of Celt culture has shaped our lives today. I could go on but I won't save to say that if Celtic Britanny, Galicia etc. are not represented or there is some 'overlap' then I think those are not very good reasons for not including a civ. That is if you are more concerned with which civs have had the most effect on world history.

 

[Bast]

I'd say English too.

British/UK are just modern terms to include the other countries in the British Isles.

I think if Welsh/Scots want their own representation, they should mod and add it.

 

[RegentMan]

You can't have everyone in the game. Saying that some people will be offended because their country, which has done something important, isn't in the game is pointless. Like I said, every country can't be in the game.

 

[Pounder]

I am really disappointed if there is no Celts. They should be near the top of any list being considered and many civs that have made it to the game should probably should have been below the Celts on the list.

Most Europeans and people from Eupopean extractions could probably find themselves with some Celtic lineage.