[BNW] Enjoyable Deity Games

[Nizef]

Hi there,
I was not sure where to put this so I started a new thread for the purpose of sharing deity games that any of us has played and enjoyed. I have no fixed rules in mind for this, but my first example might enlighten a little bit what I have in mind. The starting location has not to be OP in itself, but I generally like deity starts where I:
1. can freely choose whether to go tradition or liberty,
2. have enough room to settle at least four cities,
3. have enough growth and production to be competitive,
4. have enough resources (strategic as well as luxuries) and
5. have land that makes religion a possibility.

Given this framework I am clearly not thinking of superb players, for whom normal deity is too easy. Instead I am perhaps more referring to casual deity players as myself and perhaps also players who want to make the leap into deity.

My first contribution is an unmodded Pangaea roll with Korea on standard speed and all settings are standard but quick combat is on. The AIs are selected randomly but at least I enjoyed the mix. A jpg-screenshot of the starting location has been added.

Spoiler Hint (yes, really) :

I didn´t SIP.

I hope for short reports of what you made out of this game. And not to raise the bar too much, I would say that any tradition start has to include at least 5 self founded cities and any liberty start should aim for 7 self founded cities. NC with just 2 or 3 cities is a no-no. All VCs are enabled.

 

[beetle]

…I will add a picture of the starting location as soon as I figure out how to do it (or somebody kindly gives me advice)…

Do you know how to save a picture of the starting location to your computer?

 

[Nizef]

Do you know how to save a picture of the starting location to your computer?

A jpg-file of the starting location has been added.

 

[beetle]

A jpg-file of the starting location has been added.

Thanks! Does not look too promising, but might coast South. Warrior to the forest hill to his NW, if nothing particular, then settle T0 1 hex to NE. I like to try and get a monopoly on my starting lux, but cannot tell if that is Salt or Dye.
EDIT:

And not to raise the bar too much, I would say that any tradition start has to include at least 5 self founded cities…

Tradition, more often than not, is just four self founded cities, since the fifth does not get the free monument/aqueduct. Of course, sometimes, five or six city Tradition is called for…

…NC with just 2 or 3 cities is a no-no….

That is not correct either. Sometimes, even with Tradition, 4th (or even 3rd) city after NC makes sense.

 

[Nizef]

Thanks! Does not look too promising, but might coast South. Warrior to the forest hill to his NW, if nothing particular, then settle T0 1 hex to NE. I like to try and get a monopoly on my starting lux, but cannot tell if that is Salt or Dye.

You are absolutely right, it doesn´t look promising. I was myself going to scrap this on t0, but first impressions are sometimes wrong… And maybe you have noticed from GotM that I almost always settle my cap on a hill.

EDIT:

Tradition, more often than not, is just four self founded cities, since the fifth does not get the free monument/aqueduct. Of course, sometimes, five or six city Tradition is called for…

This might be one of these rare occasions.

That is not correct either. Sometimes, even with Tradition, 4th (or even 3rd) city after NC makes sense.

I totally agree. But I am sure you will evaluate the situation after scouting, Going for 4 city NC is perhaps not about fastest turn times but more about defining your borders. Lately I have challenged myself to expand a little more, and I have found that five is almost always better than four, if I can match the happiness required.

 

[raider980]

I'll give this one a shot. I like the first part of the game the most and usually play lots of games up to T100 or so. I'll move the warrior to the desert hill to the NW to see what'st there. I'm definitely moving the settler in that direction, I don't like that tundra. I'll probably settle on the plains one tile to the NW unless the warrior sees something awesome. That will keep the salt in the first tier, but that tundra would still be a little close.

Edit. What do you mean by "NC with just 2 or 3 cities is a no-no"? Is that a self imposed limitation or are you giving us a hint - I always try for 2 or 3 city NC.

 

[Nizef]

What do you mean by "NC with just 2 or 3 cities is a no-no"? Is that a self imposed limitation or are you giving us a hint - I always try for 2 or 3 city NC.

It is a hint. And a recommendation. And also a little bit of a tease, but as I told beetle, it is sometimes about defining your borders. Once you have scouted a little you will see what I mean. Having cities next to mountains is also very beneficial with Korea. In my game I settled 3 cities next to mountains and my 4 city NC was on t87.

 

[raider980]

This is a fun one. I'm doing better than expected - awesome for me in a legit Deity game. But I've come to a crossroads.

Spoiler T94 :

After exploring I see what you mean about founding at least 4 cities before NC. This is some nice land and there's a good amount of space. I've got good happiness thanks to the Fountain of Youth and two nearby Mercantile CS. I had plenty of money so I founded the 4th city and will buy the library there to go on to NC. Its a very friendly game, I'm friends with just about everyone except Genghis - he didn't like me settling Jeonju so close to him, but I wanted that spot; settled on the Gems-Hill-River next to a mountain. And he really didn't like it when I told him to go climb a tree when he asked me to not settle cities near him.

(As an aside, how much of a diplo hit with civs other than the one you promise to not settle near them do you get when you break your word to "not found cities near me"? Because I've found that "near me" can mean a location that is actually no where near the civ that asked you to not found cities near them, so I usually say "I'll found where I want".)

I stopped here because I need to think about the situation at T94. Genghis is about to attack me as can be seen from the screenshot below. I have a pretty good defense I think. Four CB, 2 Spearmen on the way. He does have a Pike visible but I think that might be from an upgrade, its the only one I've seen and his other units are warriors and catapults. I was actually thinking about attacking him and taking him out anyway before he gets Keshiks. But I can also bribe him to attack Venice for relatively little, he does want two luxes but I have a good amount of happiness so I think I can cover it. And I am Korea so I should turtle and just defend. What to do, what to do?

Spoiler T94 Screenshot :

 

[Nizef]

Thank you for trying out this map. It is especially good for casual games I think.

It looks to me that you are doing fine but you need more workers (I can see only two?). With Genghis you should bear in mind that he probably has 8-10 other units that you can´t see. Where you settled Jeonju, I placed my fifth city, but to make absolutely sure, I settled it one tile to the south in the middle of the mountains (so I could also work the salt on the other side of the mountains). That way I had no fear at all and was attacked only once before I decided that he had to be eliminated. But try it out. I would probably let him attack and see how it goes. In your screenshot I would put one CB on the hill in the mountains and one on the desert hill to the S and one or two melee units in front of them to aid the city. If you decide to let him attack you, you should prioritize walls right after library. But it is of course very viable to bribe him (and strictly speaking it is probably stronger play). You have many other priorities as well (catching up in tech and you will need a fifth (or even a sixth) city to the south on the coast or Gajah will come waltzing in with his settlers).

Busan and Daegu are on the exact same tiles as in my game but I settled Seoul two tiles N, next to the mountain. All that tundra to the S doesn´t appeal very much, but with fish and sea trade routes any city on the south coast will be very nice in the long run. It will also help you grow Daegu. Salt is of course always sweet even if there are no new unique luxuries on the coast. In my game there was one unexpected twist after Genghis had been reduced to a nuisance: Haile turned it on and became the AI badass of the game. I can´t recall that happening before.

And lastly one hint: Singapore is key.

 

[beetle]

I am playing this rather than posting the CDG map I promised.

I stopped here because I need to think about the situation at T94.

I do not really like where you have Daegu (too wet, should be on the hill 1 tile to NE), and Jeonju is going to make an enemy of the northern neighbor all game. There is a nice coastal spot down south that picks up a couple more Salt, which would pretty much give you the monopoly on that lux.

Attached is my T094 screen shot. I have not built any units. I am war with the AI north of the northern neighbor, to keep the neighbor happy with me. I plan to wait for air or arty to liberate Singapore.

The neighbor closest to the E DOW’d me on turn 76. I bribed the northern neighbor to DOW him, and he made peace in a few turns.

Spoiler :

 

[Nizef]

I do not really like where you have Daegu (too wet, should be on the hill I tile to NE), and Jeonju is going to make an enemy of the northern neighbor all game.

I am not a fan of too many ocean and coastal tiles either but the idea with Daegu was of course to have Whales in range as well as Marble. And internal sea trade routes between Daegu and Jeonju help a lot. By the end of my game both were well over pop 20. The good thing with securing the Gems quite early seems to be that Genghis went N and E in both raider´s and my games. Building Jeonju where you have it, seems to have contributed to Gajah going N instead of W.

 

[vadalaz]

Enjoyable game indeed, T143 DomV

Spoiler :

Killed Indonesia (first army) and liberated Singapore (second) with CBs. T98 Machinery, upgraded the two armies and finished it with XBs.

I settled on the Dyes, went 4-city Liberty. Mostly built units, the only buildings were Monuments (sold later), Granaries and Libraries (should have just sold those too after teching Chivalry), Markets and a few happiness buildings. I also got Pyramids and Machu Picchu in the capital, seemingly without any competition. Didn't really know what to do with the Liberty finisher so I just planted an academy. Bulbing was probably better since I never even made it to Chemistry anyway and it would've gotten me a T91 Machinery.

FoY and Pyramids made for an easy domination game. There were a couple of patches of rough terrain that took a little while to cut through, but other than that it's been smooth sailing.

 

[Nizef]

Enjoyable game indeed, T143 DomV

Wow! I am happy that you took the time to try it out and I can only hope to reach half of your standard one day! Could you open up a little bit about your early BO in this game? I understood it was mostly units but I am still curious about it.

Btw. I looked in HOF and a certain vadalaz has the record DomV for this setup. But that was victory on t156 and in this game you won on t143!

 

[vadalaz]

Sure, my early BO was Scout - Monument - 2x Scout - Shrine - 2 Archers and started Granary I believe - Settler - finished Granary and built more archers. After researching Construction I did something like Worker - Library - Pyramids - units, expos all built Monument - Granary - Library - Units (+ Stoneworks in Daegu)

I stole one worker each from the E and N neighbours, sold luxes in peace deals and pillaged a trade route, so I had enough gold to buy a settler before Collective rule, hence just one hard-built settler.

 

[Nizef]

Thank you, vadalaz.

 

[Nizef]

Hi,
I was not going to post a new map so soon, but this one is just too good to ignore. So bear with me. This time I will call it EDG2 (Enjoyable Deity Games number 2). The starting location was modded with Really Advanced Setup, and I picked one Silver, two Wheat, Strategic Resources and a nearby NW. The rest was just randomly created!

So what do we have here? It is Pocatello on a Pangaea map with Standard pace and size. I think this game very well fits in to my description in the beginning of this tree even if the start is way over the moon. I have no particular VC in mind here, just go with the flow and create your own wonderful empire. But maybe one request: I would hope that we all make the effort to found a religion (if you don´t do it here, you will never found a religion on deity). And remember, as the saying goes: there is a snake in every paradise.

 

[beetle]

…the idea with Daegu was of course to have Whales in range as well as Marble.

The tile I suggest also puts both Whales and Marble in range.

And internal sea trade routes between Daegu and Jeonju help a lot.

This point is a non-sequitor since you can, of course, run an internal sea trade rout between Daegu and Jeonju from the tile I suggested. Internal trades work quite well for cities that are not in terrible locations.

Aside from having weak production all game long in Deagu, which is the main problem with settling at the end of a peninsula, is that you are also vulnerable to a carpet of doom. Even if it did not happen this game, at deity, you can anticipate melee ship attacks from a dozen Privateers. A city with one exposed hex can hold that off, but not so much with 3+ hexes that can be attacked each turn.

 

[raider980]

The tile I suggest also puts both Whales and Marble in range.


Aside from having weak production all game long in Deagu, which is the main problem with settling at the end of a peninsula, is that you are also vulnerable to a carpet of doom. Even if it did not happen this game, at deity, you can anticipate melee ship attacks from a dozen Privateers. A city with one exposed hex can hold that off, but not so much with 3+ hexes that can be attacked each turn.

I debated between the two tiles. I ultimately decided on the southern one because it would get a fish and lose a desert hill. That is the only difference. I figured a fish would better for growth and that's what I would need with Korea.

I didn't think about being vulnerable to attack from the sea. That is a good point. How often does that happen? I'm usually worried about land based attacks from the AI. Sea based ones I can usually handle.

 

[Nizef]

The tile I suggest also puts both Whales and Marble in range.

This point is a non-non-sequitor since you can, of course, run an internal sea trade rout between Daegu and Jeonju from the tile I suggested. Internal trades work quite well for cities that are not in terrible locations.

Aside from having weak production all game long in Deagu, which is the main problem with settling at the end of a peninsula, is that you are also vulnerable to a carpet of doom. Even if it did not happen this game, at deity, you can anticipate melee ship attacks from a dozen Privateers. A city with one exposed hex can hold that off, but not so much with 3+ hexes that can be attacked each turn.

You are quite right. I somehow misunderstood your suggestion. Sorry about that.

I didn't think about being vulnerable to attack from the sea. That is a good point. How often does that happen? I'm usually worried about land based attacks from the AI. Sea based ones I can usually handle.

In my experience, really troublesome sea invasions are quite rare on Pangaea maps but "normal" on more watery maps. But I can recall a few exceptions to this rule: I distinctly remember 1. Shaka attacking early over a huge lake with 15-20 caravels (the end) and 2. in one of my first DomV on Deity I was in the late game up against Attila with 35 cities, nukes and total sea supremacy. That time I had to take the long land route to Attila´s Court. It took me roughly 50-60 turns (on epic speed) to conquer 8-9 cities even with 10+ Rocket Artillery (all with range and logistics) and I used about 20 nukes myself. But my few coastal cities were under constant threat until the last turn and occasionally I even lost them before reconquering.

There might also be some differences between AIs. I can´t recall that Genghis would be very prone to spamming sea units, but Gajah on the other hand is more into it.

 

[raider980]

Spoiler Korea game T201 :

Back on T94, from my previous post, I decided to bribe Genghis to attack Venice. That gave me time to advance my tech a bit and prepare for his eventual attack which came a bit later. Once I got Hwach'a and Gats, he was not going to get anywhere with his invasion. Especially since I had Singapore and Antwerp as CS allies, that was key. I pushed him back and debated trying to take Turfan. I decided against it and peaced out - he gave me a lux and quite a bit of gold per turn. (I'm always surprised at how much the AI will give you in a peace deal sometimes. I usually lowball it and miss out on some gpt I'm sure).

I'm still well behind Ethiopia and Theodora in tech but hopefully with Korea I can slingshot ahead for a SV.

Spoiler T201 Map :