Enough with theological combat already!

[AtlantisAuthor]

While I never found religion to function as any more than a support system for your Cultural policies and other interests in Civilization V, I have to say that it's immensely preferable to what we have now with Civ VI.

First and foremost, the whole system seems to be broken. The AI can spawn seemingly impossible numbers of apostles to send at your territory, making it very difficult to combat them all and keep your own cities following your native religion, let alone trying to proselytize beyond your own realm. Sure you can ask other Leaders to stop sending them, but frankly that hasn't ever worked so far for me; the AI behaves in the same exact, fork-tongued way even if they say they'll comply with your wishes.

So what about killing the enemy religious units? This mechanic is seriously funky on two fronts. First, there's the silly lightning bolt animations when you engage in theological combat. Who thought this was a good idea in a game that's supposed to be at least fairly grounded in reality like Civilization? And then we come to the elephant in the room, the biggest reason you can't simply shut down enemy religious incursions: unlike in Civ V you can't attack enemy religious units with anything other than your own Missionaries or Apostles. This renders your armies useless to act as deterrents.

Personally I very much preferred Civ V's system where you could warn another Leader not to continue proselytizing your citizens, and then if they didn't comply you could decide whether to risk war by killing them off. That makes so much more sense than having magical battles and trespassing enemy units that your military pretends don't exist.

 

[Ozisl]

I hate that animation. Really hate it. What really makes it bad is just the volume of units the AI produces and throws around constantly... they always seem to have infinite faith (probably do) without having built any holy districts.

I think we'll need to wait for mods. A quick patch isn't going to address the entire mechanic. Expansion, possibly.

 

[dexters]

My thoughts on this are in this thread

http://forums.civfanatics.com/threa...-borders-without-regard.603260/#post-14540324

 

[Xger]

Use inquisitors to fight them off...

 

[Wellfooled]

And then we come to the elephant in the room, the biggest reason you can't simply shut down enemy religious incursions: unlike in Civ V you can't attack enemy religious units with anything other than your own Missionaries or Apostles. This renders your armies useless to act as deterrents.

You can attack enemy religious units with your military under the same restrictions as attacking anything with your military; you must be at war. I've used spare scouts to ruin waves of apostles.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

You can attack religious units with military ones if you declare war.

 

[Nefelia]

I have never had an issue with the foreign Apostles... because I have built a few of my own and used them strategically to focus down their Apostles and Missionaries.

First, try to get the promotion that gives +20 to theological combat. This is a huge bonus, and if you have just two Apostles with this bonus, you will be ripping though opposing religious units.

Second, try to get other bonuses to theological combat... if I recall correctly you get a bonus from the Theocracy government and also from a policy card.

Third, build enough shrines and temples to be able to afford Apostles.

Fourth, don't bother with missionaries. They are weak fodder for Apostles. If you want to spread your religion, group up your strong Apostles and take them to the enemy, win a few Theological battles and you will start converting cities within 6 (?) tiles.

 

[TruthfulCake]

I second grouping up Apostles. The number of AI apostles seems overwhelming simply because a human player doesn't usually field 10 apostles at one given time. When you have the same amount of apostles, you will see that it is not only easy defending your territory, you can actually convert civilizations following other religion.

I think many players are currently taking the approach of buying and using up apostles as soon as they afford it. I stocked up on my apostles and sent about a dozen of them once I defeated incoming enemy missionaries and apostles. In 15 turns, I converted the whole continent.

I also find the animation funny, so no complaints from me. I am more concerned about the inability to approach cities. If you can attack apostles stationed in a city, it would be greatly helpful in offensive conversion attempts.

 

[Agent Zero Range]

just won religious victory spammed 12 apostles and sent them over to the other continent while building my conquistidors.... dint need an army the AI was overwhelmed and it took me 14 turns to convert them all(yerevan OP) spain op in religious wars. the only apostle i lost had the marytr up grade and i had to kill 3 enemy with him before he died.

but i agree to take my own continent i had a little war killed all their missionaries and converted their cities with holy sites then converted the rest as soon as i could that was the only war i had all game didnt capture a single ai city. it was suprising quick.

 

[TruthfulCake]

Another point to note is that, if you use one apostles at a time to gradually convert the opponents, it won't work because they can patch the hole with their own inquisitors or simply with their religious pressure. However, if you manage to do what the AI does and send a legion of apostles into the enemy territory, you can convert all cities simultaneously so that they are left with no city to produce apostles with, effectively wiping out their religion.

The reason it is so interesting now is because if you are overly offensive and fail to factor in the defensive apostles in enemy territory, you will likely lose the theological combat and they can use that chance to counter with their massive proselytizing while you are left with no defensive apostles. It is very much like warfare - you are defenseless when you send your troops to invade, and depending on the outcome you either conquer or be conquered. It is a matter of balancing both offensive and defensive plays with your religious units. You need to assess the right time for initiation (heh).

If you have played a game where you can have an army of 12 apostles or more at the same time, your opinion of theological combat should change. I was on the fence at first, but knowing how to stock up on apostles changed things. If your religion is not strong enough to give you enough faith to produce that amount of apostles, chances are you deserve to lose the religious game.

 

[narmox]

Another trick I learned, I stack my apostles with military units, so I can attack the AI religious units without them counter-attacking, at least in my territory and in territories where I have open borders.

 

[Jarms48]

If I'm versing the AI and they don't take my nice requests of stop sending religious units into my borders I declare war on them.

 

[Gehennas]

In the recent game (emperor difficulty) I just put the apostle asleep at my holy site near the border. Rome kept sending its apostles trying to kill this one but it was healing like +33% hp per turn.After a while not only my cities had my religion but also all the nearby roman cities and one japanese city because of all the theological losses Rome had. It seems that AI is good at spamming religious units, but it cannot use them correctly.

By the way Japan has denounced me and DoW'd me soon (with a "Holy War" CB) because I have converted their city without literally doing anything. I find this quite strange.

 

[Nefelia]

By the way Japan has denounced me and DoW'd me soon (with a "Holy War" CB) because I have converted their city without literally doing anything. I find this quite strange.

Japan likely wanted to take you out and finally had a justification, no matter how weak.

No different from the US going to war with Iraq over the actions of some Afghani-based Saudi terrorists.

 

[Antiriad]

I don't mind religion too much, though it is a pain when you don't manage to found a religion and you're simply trying to fend of an AI religious victory. On Prince difficulty I had little trouble converting my continent without really trying. But why do the non-founder converting nations spam you with missionaries also?

However, I wonder if there should be a period of secularism after which the religious victory is severely nerfed - at least in peace time. You should gain the option to ban them from your territory.

 

[Timally]

I don't mind religion too much, though it is a pain when you don't manage to found a religion and you're simply trying to fend of an AI religious victory. On Prince difficulty I had little trouble converting my continent without really trying. But why do the non-founder converting nations spam you with missionaries also?

However, I wonder if there should be a period of secularism after which the religious victory is severely nerfed - at least in peace time. You should gain the option to ban them from your territory.

I'd like to see the losing faith power re implemented from civ V if there are no open borders. Maybe to take your suggestion into account, the AI could declare an inquisition where he will openly try convert your cities., and stop when peace is declared.

I'm quite enjoying the religious game to be honest. I think its a nice change of pace. Most complaints seem to be about getting swarmed. But I find it easy enough to defend. Religious victory is the easiest to accomplish unless you horse spam as Scythia. But to do it you have to at least try put some effort into it, meaning making early sacrifices. If you hadn't built an army and got swarmed by the AI, then you'd say its your fault. If you haven't put any effort into religion and the AI swarms you then it's their fault..

My favourite civ at the moment is Russia as you can passively gobble up enough faith to make the AI ask how does he get such a swarm of apostles, while also focusing on building your empire

 

[Disgustipated]

I still love the game I forward settled next to Dehli, India's capital city and I converted his holy city and capital over from his losses in theological combat. That was sweet. After that, I had to quickly move on another city with a holy site, and his missionary spam days were over.