Entertainment Complex

My problem with the Theater Square is that it barely has any culture generation
A fully housed Theater square for a standard Civ without any cards apart from cultural heritage and online communities (both a must for CV) using an archaeological museum is 40 Culture +
10 Cities = 400 culture... just from theater squares at endgame. It can be more but why bother?

In the early-mid game around say turn 120 ish you could be at this stage

10 Cities with monuments and palace = +21 Culture
10 Cities with an average of 7 population = +21 Culture
10 Theater squares each with just an Amphitheater - lets say you have 5 great writers (not hard to get) = +60 culture

You are at +100 culture when the AI is lucky to be at +30... and that's not using any cards like meritocracy

Add +120 for having 6 envoys at 3 culture City States - Early - mid 3 envoys at 2 will be +40

Add +100 for Kumasi and you are really racing.

Once you get Archaeological museums that are themed (not hard) thats +20 culture each.
As they are not that far up the culture tree you can have 300+ culture easy. More closer to 500 if with a good wind. Everything but 140 of that comes from Theater squares.

The key is to push the projects to get the great writers, that's what gives you a push if you do not have Kumasi. Also use the envoys wisely for those culture CS.

Mid-late game you no longer need culture, your domestic tourism will be sickeningly high. Time to swap to science to get computers, eiffel tower, seaside resorts, radio, flight.

When you get computers the game normally lasts a few turns after with this strategy.
You do not need a high population or a large country so entertainment complexes are a waste really. trying to ensure +3 amenities everywhere is not worth the production.
 
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Uhm. What game speed do you play on?
 
My problem with the Theater Square is that it barely has any culture generation. It's adjacency bonus is the least common object on the map (excluding natural wonders, but holy sites have other adjacency bonuses too) and it's not even two culture which you get from it. The Amphiteather then also gives a meager 2 culture, and the same for the building you build after it.

Shrines and Libraries give +2 faith and science, respectively. So in that regard an Amphitheater is no worse than the comparable Holy Site and Campus buildings. The museums are a bit less productive than Temples and Universities, but unlike the latter, the former can be augmented when housing Great Works and especially when fully themed.


The only way you get more that that is if you get great people, and that's always a race you might lose (you probably wont with this AI, but that's another topic). It just takes far too long to get anything out of building one. You first put the district down, then build an Amphitheater, then wait until you get a Great Person, and only then does it give you a meaningful amount of culture. Compare that to the average other district: You place a Campus next to some mountains, don't even need to build a Library because you already get science, but you can boost it more if you want.

Sure, the adjacency bonus for Theater Squares isn't quite as generous as it is for other districts, but there are a few key points that are worth mentioning. First, there are more ways to enhance culture through religious beliefs, policy cards, and unique tile improvements than there are for science. In other words, it's easier to mitigate lagging culture than it is lagging science.

Second - and this one's important - culture impacts a victory condition in ways science doesn't. Science Victories are races. If you're competing for a science victory then a high science output will, in a vacuum, allow you to reach the space projects quicker. But researching the necessary techs is only half the battle in a science victory; you still need to build a Spaceport and complete the various projects to win. This can all be done in complete isolation from the rest of the world; outside of warfare and espionage there isn't anything another Civ can do that impacts your ability to win a Science Victory.

But cultural victories are a different animal entirely. Every point of culture bolsters defense against tourism, which is to say every point of culture you produce decreases the likelihood of someone else winning a Cultural Victory. In that way, Cultural Victories are more of a contest between people pushing against one another. Because culture directly impacts other Civ's attempts to win a victory the developers have to be mindful of how much they allow players to generate without opportunity costs.
 
The trouble with the theatre square is that there are plenty of sources of culture outside of the district. Monuments and meritocracy tend to be enough for anything other than a culture victory. Therefore the typical advice is to build theatre squares if and only if going for a culture victory. What the district needs is more appeal across different victory types.

Compare with the holy site (and I very much disagree with whoever said the holy site was just as bad). Faith and religion have uses outside of a religious victory. You've got bonuses to growth, production, housing, gold, you've got theocracy based domination strategies, you've got national parks, you've got purchasing great people. Really it's one of the better designed districts; optional, but useful to different strategies.
 
Shrines and Libraries give +2 faith and science, respectively. So in that regard an Amphitheater is no worse than the comparable Holy Site and Campus buildings. The museums are a bit less productive than Temples and Universities, but unlike the latter, the former can be augmented when housing Great Works and especially when fully themed.

That is true, yes. However, Shrines and Libraries are not required in order to get something out of your district, which was my point.

Sure, the adjacency bonus for Theater Squares isn't quite as generous as it is for other districts, but there are a few key points that are worth mentioning. First, there are more ways to enhance culture through religious beliefs, policy cards, and unique tile improvements than there are for science. In other words, it's easier to mitigate lagging culture than it is lagging science.

Second - and this one's important - culture impacts a victory condition in ways science doesn't. Science Victories are races. If you're competing for a science victory then a high science output will, in a vacuum, allow you to reach the space projects quicker. But researching the necessary techs is only half the battle in a science victory; you still need to build a Spaceport and complete the various projects to win. This can all be done in complete isolation from the rest of the world; outside of warfare and espionage there isn't anything another Civ can do that impacts your ability to win a Science Victory.

But cultural victories are a different animal entirely. Every point of culture bolsters defense against tourism, which is to say every point of culture you produce decreases the likelihood of someone else winning a Cultural Victory. In that way, Cultural Victories are more of a contest between people pushing against one another. Because culture directly impacts other Civ's attempts to win a victory the developers have to be mindful of how much they allow players to generate without opportunity costs.

I do think you're right here though.
 
The trouble with the theatre square is that there are plenty of sources of culture outside of the district. Monuments and meritocracy tend to be enough for anything other than a culture victory. Therefore the typical advice is to build theatre squares if and only if going for a culture victory. What the district needs is more appeal across different victory types.

Compare with the holy site (and I very much disagree with whoever said the holy site was just as bad). Faith and religion have uses outside of a religious victory. You've got bonuses to growth, production, housing, gold, you've got theocracy based domination strategies, you've got national parks, you've got purchasing great people. Really it's one of the better designed districts; optional, but useful to different strategies.

Holy Sites are really all or nothing though. If you don't get a religion, all that faith is basically wasted, so the hammers in the Holy Sites are too. And if you do want a religion, you'll have to build a Holy Site first in your first three or four cities, which means that you're losing three or four other districts in the early game which could be Campuses, Harbors, Encampments, you name it.
 
From some of the things that are getting said in this thread and other threads, I'm starting to get the feeling that a large problem people are having with districts in general is that they don't do what players want them to do, or what players expect them to, or don't do it well enough for it to be worthwhile for players.

A solution MIGHT be to have government policies that can help improve these things in various ways. Civ 5 had this a bit, certain social policies or religious beliefs could be quite strong, but specialized you. The vox populi mod for Civ 5, which is one of my favourite mods by leagues, did this a lot more. The result is a fun and interesting game. There is tons of replayability because the way you achieve what you want can be different each time. If I had to visualize gameplay in this style, it would be snake-like or like a lightning bolt. Civ 6 gameplay is very different. It feels more like a straight line, with small shoots reaching out to take various things.

The devs said they wanted to do away with the build order for techs that Civ 5 had, and I believe they did this to a degree, but other aspects of the game seem to lock you in even more than in 5.

To be honest, it's been quite a while since I've played an actual game of Civ 5, and I never won single player above emperor. Most of my memories are of playing Vox Populi and that was an entirely different experience.

In civ 5, decisions about your government were permanent and could not be changed. Religion could be a useful tool even if you weren't trying for religious domination (which wasn't a victory condition), whereas in Civ 6 religion seems very bland and uninteresting.

Finally, what I think Civ 6 should do to fix this is add new types of policy slots and cards to governments. As things stand, we have military policies, economic policies and diplomatic policies. The function of each type of policy is only loosely defined. For example, one would expect military policies to be useful for combat, military expansion and producing units. In reality, military policies do do this, to a degree. For the most part though, military policies are some variant on "increase production towards X type of unit from Y era by Z%".

Economic policies meanwhile seem to cover every yield in the game: food, gold, production, science, faith, culture, tourism, district adjacencies, amenities, and housing.

Finally, Diplomatic policies can increase yields but are generally focused on spies, city states and allies.

[Ignoring wildcard policies for a moment]

In my opinion, this puts way too much pressure on economic policy slots. They've crammed so much into the economic policy cards that you're forced to only use the objectively best policies. There could be a lot of room for interesting strategies through use of policy slots but most of the time, players are prevented from doing so because they'd be giving up something more important.

So I say add more types of policy slot. Diversify economic policies into cultural policies, science policies and economic policies.

I think there's more than enough merit for this. It increases the number of policy slots available at each era but there's nothing wrong with that. Cultural policy slots can cover your government's opinion on domestic culture. Through different eras, this can encompass different types of yields, for example in early eras, maybe your civ's culture is based around their religion (as many ancient civilizations were; their religions having a major impact on every part of their life). They have festivals and rituals honoring their faith and this provides culture, so this policy might be that religious buildings also produce an equal amount of culture as faith.

In later eras, maybe culture is related to trade and economy, your people's culture flourishes through art and cultural exchange all over the continent. Maybe your culture has diversified and flourished in the small towns that dot your vast empire, and that diversity makes you stronger? Later, your culture builds from media centres and museums and art galleries, it also impacts tourism and amenities.

Science begins as philosophy, your government endorses the natural sciences and encourages your people. Perhaps early science policies split their yields between culture or faith, as many early scholars were monks or poets or writers. Maybe you get science from exploration, or from each new civ or natural wonder you meet. Later, your science builds from scribes and more specialized learners or from apprenticeships and guilds that work to specialize the crafts, skills and trades, refining the understanding of each field. In the modern era, maybe you have state sponsored education, allowing you to trade gold per turn for science per turn, if your economy can support it.

There are all sorts of interesting and nuanced ways to handle governments that would allow civs and players to tailor each game based on the victory condition they are going for or even the way they've played the game. Certain policies may be better if you happen to have a lot of mountains or forests or jungles, etc.

If players had more ways to customize their game, districts like the Entertainment Complex and Holy Site could be enhanced to perform better in the game.

EDIT: There's a lot of room for interesting policies that could change the way you play the game. The only problem is there isn't any room to add them in a way that players will actually have the opportunity to use them. Imagine a policy that gave near instant travel for units along roads in your territory at the cost of gold per turn maintenance on road tiles. This is essentially a government-sponsored highway and could have many interesting uses as it makes roads much more useful by allowing very quick travel around your empire. There aren't many policies that do more than slightly change a few numbers like adding or decreasing a % onto something. Few policies do something like change the way you can play the game.
 
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Compare with the holy site (and I very much disagree with whoever said the holy site was just as bad). Faith and religion have uses outside of a religious victory. You've got bonuses to growth, production, housing, gold, you've got theocracy based domination strategies, you've got national parks, you've got purchasing great people. Really it's one of the better designed districts; optional, but useful to different strategies.

Yeah I phrased it a bit poorly. I do think Holy Sites have more versatility than theater districts and faith can work well with other victory types after founding a religion. I tend to ignore them on high difficulty and they have low to zero usefulness when you do not prioritize founding a religion.
 
Part of the flaw with theatre districts is that they get undercut by being able to build a monument to generate culture in cities. I can not build a single theatre district and still not be in terrible shape for culture. Of course, similarly, you can get a lot of science from population.

If you change things to make it harder to come about otherwise with science/culture, then it might balance things more. So if you, say, dropped the monument to be 1 culture/1 faith instead of 2 culture, and changed the science/culture from pop to .5/.25 instead of .7/.3, and also dropped the commerce district down in value (maybe remove the trade route from it and move that somewhere else?), then it might balance out things a bit more. They probably also need to lower the first envoy bonus - I remember one game I was lucky to have 3 science city states right next to me that I discovered first, and suddenly my science rate was about 3X what it would normally be without even building a campus.
 
I pretty much only play standard speed standard size continents to ensure consistency in my head of what I do

How do you manage 10 cities in 100 turns then? I mean, Settlers typically take at least 10 turns to build, and you have to build military and buildings too, right? At the very least, I probably wouldn't manage to build so many.
 
While it is possible to build 10 cities in 100 turns as you said, you do not do much else.
Using 10 in an example just makes the figures simpler.
I did not say the cities were built, they can be talen which many do.
I will often build 6 and recieve 2 as payment for peace, but violent take more.
The whole piece is around how much culture a theatre square can generate. Which is an awful lot.
Whether you have 6 or 14, it about using the theaters
 
I like it.

That said, I still consider it quite an important district in itself already. Also, I suppose it should only be for later eras.
 
I was thinking about district adjacencies but I feel like I might as well post here than a whole new thread.

Entertainment complex should get an adjency bonus for theatre districts.

Also, the individual buildings in the district should have benefits. Arena should also give +1 culture. Zoo should give +1 science (+3 after environmentalism, but maintenance goes up by one). Stadium shouldn't have a maintenance cost. Anyone who's been to one will know food, drinks and seating are far from free.
 
I'm not familiar with the exact tourism mechanics, but I gather that tourism does basically FA until you actually win a cultural victory. So granting tourism through specialists is a poor mechanic, isn't it? You could set your citizens to do something otherwise useful (e.g. work a tile) until the exact moment a cultural victory was possible, then set a bunch of specialists for that one turn for the win. In which case how is a specialist slot granting tourism any different from the building simply granting passive tourism?

Forgive me if I have the mechanics wrong.
 
I'm not familiar with the exact tourism mechanics, but I gather that tourism does basically FA until you actually win a cultural victory. So granting tourism through specialists is a poor mechanic, isn't it? You could set your citizens to do something otherwise useful (e.g. work a tile) until the exact moment a cultural victory was possible, then set a bunch of specialists for that one turn for the win. In which case how is a specialist slot granting tourism any different from the building simply granting passive tourism?

Forgive me if I have the mechanics wrong.

Both culture and tourism stack up over time. For every X culture, you get 1 domestic tourist. For every Y tourism to a civilization (tourism is modified by several things, like trade routes and governments, and only starts once you know the civilization), you get 1 visiting tourist from that civilization, once you have more visiting tourists than any other civilization has domestic tourists, you win a culture victory.

I believe, though I'm not sure, that on normal game speed, X = 100 and Y = 150*Civs_at_the_start_of_the_game. Victoria (the forumer) probably knows it in more detail.
 
theaters should be part of entertainment complex. and the complex shouldnt be available to the player. i dont remember my country deciding to build sports stadia and set up all the clubs in the then football league - that grew directly out of the people and no government decided on it. same thing with shakespeares globe theatre. he built it, and put plays on there, with patronage. when they want amenities MAYBE have them request it to the government, and then you merely allocate a district - which costs nothing and you pay nothing. so long as you give them someplace, then private businesses will provide the theaters, cinema and casinos etc themselves. all the govt does is get taxes from it.
 
theaters should be part of entertainment complex. and the complex shouldnt be available to the player. i dont remember my country deciding to build sports stadia and set up all the clubs in the then football league - that grew directly out of the people and no government decided on it. same thing with shakespeares globe theatre. he built it, and put plays on there, with patronage. when they want amenities MAYBE have them request it to the government, and then you merely allocate a district - which costs nothing and you pay nothing. so long as you give them someplace, then private businesses will provide the theaters, cinema and casinos etc themselves. all the govt does is get taxes from it.

I haven't heard of the government putting out a decree "start building anything that earns money in this part" or "start building anything that earn production in this part" or "start buliding temples here" or something like that. The only districts that resemble stuff that would in real life be decided upon fully by the government (instead of allocating a place) are Campus, Aquaduct, Neighborhood, Aerodome and Spaceport. And even then for the Campus... Not so certain really. But this is just how the game works. If you want to play with the people wanting something and you only giving them a spot to build it, Civ is not the game for you. Maybe there's another TBS out there (I don't know) or otherwise, well, you can always start working on a game yourself.
 
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