Equality PBEM

[predesad]

This game has started, anyone interested can view a detailed list of settings at post 46, posts 47-49 contain available downloads, the scenario file and two epic games, one on emporer level, one on monarch.

Another unusual PBEM, first of all this one will take time to set up because there will be discussion as to how exactly the changes will be implemented. Also I am a bit overloaded with PBEMs, but should be ending 2 in about a week.

What makes this PBEM unusual is that it will be modded, all the changes will be done through the editor in such a way there will not be a need to download the scenario, although i will make it available for the players if they want. All changes will be discussed here and when complete I will post a summary, in addition I will send an email detailing all the changes to each player. The changes are not going to be overwhelming or complicated.

Basically, the idea for this PBEM is to make all the civs equal, take away their individuality, but in a way that makes each civ much more powerful and presents more opportunities for the players. How I am going to accomplish this is to give each civ all 8 of the traits, meaning each civ will have every available bonus in the game. In addition, we will not be playing with the normal units, instead we will play with all the UU, every civ will be able to build every UU, most of the normal units will be removed from the game.

The upgrade chain will have some discussion, basically I have a plan already, but am willing to allow the players to voice their opinion about my decisions. Because the UU are, well they are unique as the name says, I feel it will be beneficial for them to stick around longer and provide more options to the players, thus their upgrade will be delayed. Forexample, most ancient age uu will not upgrade to anything until the middle ages, at which point they will upgrade to another uu, preferably. This can of course be debated, I am not planning to start this until at least next weekend or longer depending upon if there is any interest.

Additionally, there will be no Great Wonders. The Great Wonders will be changed to Small Wonders, meaning each civ will always have the opportunity to build them. Some wonders will have their benefits modified, for example, The Great Library, we can't have everyone owning a wonder which gives them everyone else's research. This is in keeping with the idea behind this PBEM, to put the civs on equal footing, you will not be able to build a wonder which gives you a benefit not available to other players.

There will be a few other minor changes. The ivory luxury resource is going to be renamed elephants and become a strategic resource which will be required to build War Elephants. Elephants will provide an additional food and shield as well as the commerce they already do. To compensate for the removal of a luxury resource, one of the bonus resources will be changed to a luxury resource, probably tobacco which would most likely provide 2 extra commerce instead of the one it currently does.

Philosophy will have its benefit of providing a bonus tech to the first player who researches it removed, as this would give that player a benefit no longer avialable to the others. To compensate, there may be a modification made to Philosophy depending upon the outcome of discusion and any suggestions.

Any other suggestions are welcome.

Concerning game settings:

There will be four human players, since the civs are basically the same, individual civs are going to be first claimed by a player of that nationality. For example, if someone from Germany wants to play, they get first choice of the Germans if they want it. Players are welcome to provide custom information for their civs. There will also be four AI. This will be a huge world, perhaps archipelego (however you spell it) or maybe continents. Either 60 or 70 % Water. Normal climate / temp /age. Normal victory conditions. Accelerated production will be off. Barbarians will be RAGING. Difficulty will ve Emporer or higher.

If nobody shows interest in this game I will cry.

 

[DogBoy]

I show interest.
But I won't be able to discuss much until Sunday night. Gotta work and then be out of town.

 

[predesad]

I show interest.

I will hold a spot for you, but that might not be necessary because I am worried other players won't like the uniqueness factor being removed from all the civs.

 

[Krabius]

Count me in! I am always for something original and new, I hope others are also. Your idea is very interesting, giving all civ's the same opportunaties will make it a very fair game and probably a very millitaristic one.

 

[Rubberjello]

I would like to try this. But I am wary that such extensive changes in the the editor will cause some "slips". I don't mean to slight your editing skills, of course! But I've found the slight risk of something being changed magnifies for each change until the chance of having a game running as intended clean through to the Modern Age is actually not as high as you might think. Are you going to run a solo test of the changes first? (Or is someone else going to do the changes so you don't have a map advantage.)

If the map is going to be that heavily edited, you might as well "even up" the starting positions and make sure resources and luxuries are pretty fairly distributed.
No Civ Preference (of course! Since they are all the same!) But I would prefer not to be "pink".

 

[predesad]

Rubberjello, i understand your concerns, i also meant to mention another possibility which might slow down the start of the game, once all the decisions have been made i will set up a scenario, available to the participants to test themselves of course, in which i will give myself 20 cities & all the techs w/ reduced builds for the wonders / units & make sure there are no problems. As far as the units are concerned and assigning all the attributes to every civ, i have already set up a similar scenario before and there were no problems. Although i was playing on regent level, far outdistanced any of the AI before i got halfway through the middle ages, and so I retired.

in general, as long as i am not careless about the editing, the types of changes will not affect anything which would cause an error because no pediaicon changes or art or other text changes will be necessary.

i will not be editing the map and planned on using a randomly generated map which would not be revealed to anyone including myself, the map itself will be generated like a normal pbem game. how this works if you are not familiar with the process is i create a scenario in th editor using just the custom rules option. then in the multiplayer screen under game type (i think) i select load scenario. a screen comes up with all the scenarios i have saved, i select this one and it loads. then i put in all the player's data and hit launch, when i hit launch is when the map is built.

i am not opposed to having a neutral party set up the map, set passwords, and start the game, but with the changes in the editor i fear another persons involvement might put the stability of the game at risk, we might suddenly get errors i had already checked. Another alternative is for me to build / modify the map, without assigning any starts and select reveal map option, but that is another issue to be discussed among the players.

If you are still okay with this it looks like we have our four players.

To all players: I will begin posting the changes for discussion later today, please either join in discussions or refrain from criticizing later on when you dont like the settings / changes. DogBoy will not be available until Sunday, but that should not hold us up.

 

[predesad]

This is the list of normal units:

settler n/c
worker n/c
scout include / exclude ? (chasqui scout)
explorer include / exclude ? (conquistadors)
marine n/c
modern paratrooper n/c
warrior exclude, but popped from huts
archer basic barbarian ? (several)
spearman exclude (several)
swordsman advanced barbarian ? (several)
chariot exclude (several)
horseman exclude (mounted warrior)
pikeman exclude (swiss mercenaries)
longbowman include / exclude ? (berserks)
musketman exclude (musketers)
knight exclude (several)
rifleman n/c
cavalry exclude (several)
infantry n/c
tank exclude (panzer)
mechanical infantry n/c
modern armor n/c
catapult n/c
cannon exclude (hwach'a)
artillery n/c
radar artillery n/c
cruise missile n/c
tactical nuke n/c
ICBM n/c
galley exclude (dromon)
caravel barbarian ship ? (carrack)
frigate exclude (man-o-war)
galleon n/c
ironclad n/c
transport n/c
carrier n/c
submarine n/c
destroyer n/c
battlehsip n/c
AEGIS cruiser n/c
nuclear submarine n/c
fighter n/c
bomber n/c
helicopter n/c
jet fighter exclude (F-15)
stealth fighter n/c
stealth bomber n/c
leader n/c
army n/c
medieval infantry include / exclude ? (immortals)
guerilla n/c
trebuchet n/c
cruiser n/c
curragh n/c
paratropper n/c
TOW infantry n/c
flak n/c
mobile SAM n/c
privateer n/c

-n/c means no change
-for excluded units, a uu of superior quality at the same tech, or an equivalent unit at earleir tech is listed, several indicates more than one
-scouts / explorer might be considered to be included despite the uu because they have no attack values and are cheaper to build, in the case of explorer they require no resources as their counterpart uu does
-warriors will still be popped from huts, no way to change this, we need to establish what early uu they will upgrade to
-i am contemplating changing the barbarians to archers / swordsman to make them stronger
-although berserks replace longbows, they are much more expensive to build
-considering making the barbarian ships caravels to make them stronger
-although immortals are a cheaper earlier equivalent of medieval infantry, perhaps medieval infantry need to ne included at feudalism to give an upgrade possibility for other uu

List of UU

UUs technology adm brf old upgrade

jaguar warrior warrior code 1/1/2 swordsman
bowman warrior code 2/2/1 1/0/1 longbowman
hoplite bronze working 1/3/1 musketman
impi bronze working 1/2/2 musketman
legionary iron working 3/3/1 medieval infantry
immortals iron working 4/2/1 guerilla
war chariot the wheel 2/1/2 knight
rider chivalry 4/3/3 cavalry
mounted warrior horseback riding 3/1/2 knight
musketeer gunpowder 2/5/1 2/0/1 rifleman
samurai chivalry 4/4/2 cavalry
war elephant chivalry 4/3/2 cavalry
cossack military tradition 6/3/3 none
panzer motorized transportatin 16/8/3 modern armor
man-o-war magnetism 4/2/5 4/1/2 none
F-15 rocketry 8/4/1 6/0/2 none
keshik chivalry 4/2/2 calvary
conquistador astronomy 3/2/2 none
berserk invention 6/2/1 guerilla
sipahi military tradition 8/3/3 none
gallic swordsman iron working 3/2/2 medieval infantry
ansar warrior chivalry 4/2/3 cavalry
numidian mercenary bronze working 2/3/1 musketman
hwach'a metallurgy 0/0/1 8/1/1 artillery
enkidu warrior none 1/2/1 pikeman
three man chariot the wheel 2/2/2 knight
carrack astronomy 2/2/4 galleon
swiss mercenary feudalism 1/4/1 rifleman
chasqui scout none 1/1/2 explorer
javelin thrower warrior code 2/2/1 longbowman
dromon map making 2/1/3 2/1/2 caravel

additional:
-samurai does not require horses
-war elephants require neither horses / iron, have +1 HP bonus
-cossack has blitz ability
-panzer has blitz ability
-man-o-war has enslave ability
-F-15 has lethal bombardment ability and stealth attack
-keshik requires no iron
-conquistadors treat all terrian as roads
-berserks have amphibious attack ability
-hwach'a has lethal bombardment ability
-carrack transports 3 units
-chasqui scout ignore movement costs of mountains / hills
-javelin thrower had enslave ability
-dromons transport 2 units, have lethal sea bombardment ability


my thoughts on upgrades:

-jaguar warrior > gallic swordsman > samurai > cossack > panzer > modern armor
-warrior > bowman > longbowman > guerilla > TOW infantry
-impi, enkidu warrior, hoplite, numidian mercanary > swiss mercenary > musketeer > rifleman > infantry > mechanical infantry
-legionary, immortals > guerilla > TOW infantry
-war chariot, three man chariot > mounted warrior > keshik > ansar warrior > cossack > panzer > modern armor
-rider, war elephant > sipahi > panzer > modern armor
-chasqui scout > conquistador
-javelin thrower > berserk > marines
-catapult > trebuchet > hwach'a > artillery > radar artillery
-curragh > dromon > carrack > galleon > transport
-fighter > F-15
-man-o-war > cruiser > AEGIS cruiser
-ironclad > destroyer


Golden Ages will need to be removed from most of the UU and we will need to decide which units are capable of generating a GA, no matter how many units have the capability, each civ will still only get one GA.

 

[Rubberjello]

I'm sorry Predased. You've obviously given this a lot of thought and are pretty practiced at it, so I didn't mean to cast aspersions at your editing ability.

I vote:

Include Scouts
Exclude Explorers
Exclude Archer
Include Longbowmen
Exclude Med. Inf.

Give Barbs Carracks
Popped Warriors upgrade to Swords?

In terms of GA triggers...Small Wonders will not trigger them, right? In terms of units... very good question. How to set them so the AI will take advantage of them also? Choose 2-3 each age?

 

[predesad]

Popped Warriors upgrade to Swords?

which sword unit do you think they should upgrade to, legionary or immortals?

In terms of GA triggers...Small Wonders will not trigger them, right? In terms of units... very good question. How to set them so the AI will take advantage of them also? Choose 2-3 each age?

no the small wonders wont trigger the GA, but there will be enough barbarians around via game settings to not have to worry about that even if you dont go to war. i am against giving the GA to any of the ancient age units, to help avoid a depotism GA, and maybe just assign it to nearly all the middle ages units plus the panzer & F-15. as far as middle ages units, leave it off the swiss mercenary maybe as there is still a possibility you would be under despotism when you get feudalism.

 

[predesad]

in case anyone wants to take a look at things so far or do any premature testing, here is the scenario with the unit changes, the upgrade path follows my previous post although this is not final. in addition, the 'starts golden age' ability has been removed from all ancient age uu & swiss mercenaries. explorers were also removed as i agree w/ rubberjello on that point, who builds explorers anyway?

in addition, the ivory luxury resource had been renamed elephants, changed to a strategic resource which is required to build war elephants (note, it will still also be required for statue of zeus) and its value was chaged from 0/0/2. to compensate, tobacco was changed form a bonus resource to a luxury resource and its value was changed from 0/0/1 to 0/0/2.

no other changes have been made to this scenario

even though the file is small, i had to zip it in order to attach it, otherwise it was not an appropriate file type

 

[deshelbr]

I definitely want to play this if you don't already have your four players.

 

[predesad]

I definitely want to play this if you don't already have your four players.

I already have four players, but i could make this a five player game, mostly because you said you "definitely" want to play. I am resistant to going more than 5 because of potentials for drop outs / delays. I cannot comment on you or krabius, but i am very confident rubberjello / dogboy will not drop out or cause significant unnecessary delays (delay for no reason) i'll add you, but increasing to 5 players means everyone, myself included, will need to PM a password to a neutral party, who I might use to set up the game depending upon their ability to handle the scenario properly, which isn't too difficult, but does have the potential to screw something up, especially if they decided to open the scenario and play with it before starting the game even though they dont intend to save any changes.

If 2-3 more people decide to join between now and the actual start of the PBEM taking the total to 7 or 8 players then I'll just make it two different PBEMs with the same settings just different players. If only 7 players, then someone will be in both games. Being that I am the host I will reserve that option for myself, but since I have a load of PBEMs and since the Ultimate 2 Player PBEM is beginning to become even more complicated than I originally thought I am likely to pass this option on to someone else. So anyone else interested feel free to sign up.

Recently, I have also decided it will take longer than i first thought to start this game because once all the decisions have been made and I have it fully modded it needs to be thoroughly tested because i would hate to get to the industrial ages and get an error or something, like rubberjello commented about. because it will be awhile before the actual PBEM starts there is also the possibilty one of the players might drop out or not be able to play at that time.

Testing won't be mandatory of all players, but if you don't test then don't complain later. What I will do is make all the changes and save the scenario we want to play. I will then import those settings into another scenario which will be used for testing. The test scenario will have settings which ridiculously speeds up the game. In general settings, both the min & max research time will be set to 1 turn, which means you can set research to 10% & still discover a new tech every turn, after what, about 80 turns you have researched every tech. It will be a 4 player PBEM test w/ 2 AI, this will help verify interaction between players, while you are testing you can just control both of the human players and i will make any suggesitons of things to watch for. It should not take long to verify everything, maybe a couple weeks AFTER all the other decisions are made, the test has to include the exact settings for the PBEM, but some people get really impatient aout waiting for a PBEM to start, including myself.

In addition to the tech thing, i will change every terrain for the test so it generates like 5 food, 10 shields, 5 commerce. then every civ will start with 10 cities. In this way, not only will your research fly by, but cities will grow rapidly and you can build things rapidly. Basically, we'll just be double checking the upgrade chain, that units still require proper resources, and that no additional changes have slipped in, little things that are easy to notice. Also that the wonders will be able to be built and require the proper resources, tech, etc, and that all are small wonders, meaning if you build them in one civ the other can still build them.

If you're up for the wait, and especially if you agree to help test, then you are welcome to join. Please feel free to make any comments about the units i have posted above I will shortly be making my suggestions for the wonders changes. I have already discovered the potential for an error, if all great wonders are eliminated and you open the civolopedia then select great wonders, there are none there and the game is likely to crash. to eliminate even that possibility there will be one great wonder, but it will not have any effects or generate any culture, i am thinking the Great Wall, maybe one of the AI will still be stupid enough to build it, but hey, if the AI is stupid enough to dedicate that many shields to building a worthless wonder then let it.

 

[deshelbr]

I'm willing to wait and I'm willing to test. I probably will only be able to make one move per day, but I'm not currently playing in any PBEM games, so I'm not going to get civ-burnout. I might go on a business trip for a few days every once in a while, but I can install C3C on my laptop and try to connect. Otherwise I probably have a back-up player in my office who will play a few turns if I can't.

 

[predesad]

Great Wonders whose attribute will have to be changed in order to convert to small wonders:

(cannot have small wonders which put improvements in every city or doubles happiness of other improvements, editor will not allow)



Great Library: (grants advances discovered by 2 civs, ridiculous for every civ) suggest gives two free advances

Pyramids: (puts granary in every city) suggest one content citizen all cities, doubles growth rate (free granary for local city) allows city size 2 (free aqueduct)

Oracle: (double happiness of temples) suggest 1 extra happy citizen in all cities, but requires 5 temples to build

Great Wall: (puts walls in every city) suggest used to prevent "No Great Wonders" crash, remains a Great Wonder but has no benefit, value, culture

Sun Tzu's: (puts barrakcs in every city) suggest allows veteran ground / sea / air units, reduces war weariness, but requires 5 barracks

Sistine Chapel: (doubles happiness of cathedrals) suggest 3 content citizens in all cities, but requires 5 cathedrals

Hoover Dam: (puts hydro plant in all cities) suggest in additon to must be by a river, must be coastal, then increases food / trade / shields in water, doubles production, pollution -1 (note these are all city specific)

The Interent: (puts research lab in all cities) suggest gives 2 free advances

Temple of Artemis: (puts temple in all cities) suggest 1 content citizen in all cities, but requires 5 temples

United Nations: (allows diplomatic victory, unnecessary for every civ, does anyone go for diplomatic victory in pbem?) suggest acts as another forbidden palace

This is all i can think of that needs changed, also need a possible suggestion for a benefit from philosophy besides it gives 1st civ to research a bonus tech, or there will be no benefit at all reverting back to vanilla civ. suggestions are welcome about anything, will try to leave this open for discussion for a week before testing begins.

 

[Rubberjello]

I suggest that the UN be kept "as is" and be the only Great Wonder. There is no way that a diplo victory should be attainable in a PBEM game. (If there are any AIs around still then, then it adds a little spice to the game!)

The Great Wall should be a small wonder and at least give the anti-barb bonus. Suggest 1 Content citizen in every city on same landmass? (Content = feeling more secure?)

I like all the other suggestions. For Hoover, is there anyway to lower pollution to absolute minimum/none?

 

[predesad]

I like all the other suggestions. For Hoover, is there anyway to lower pollution to absolute minimum/none?

In the editor you have a pollutin factor you can adjust either up or down for improvements / wonders. By setting the pollution to -1 it takes off one pollution caused by another improvement, like a factory, offshore platform, power plant, but then there are other factors such as population which cause pollution.

To make it so that the hoover dam eliminates pollution from a city i could set this to a very high negative number, i.e. -20 or whatever is the most negative number i could set it to. that's a good idea for hoover's.

i wanted a second forbidden palace w/out being under communism gov't, which is why i suggested that for UN, but we could do as you suggested w/ the Great Wall, leave the UN as is, but subtract the culture it generates because this would prevent someone from getting a special bonus from the wonder, & yes some players will build a wonder just for the culture. then maybe something else could act as a second forbidden palace or we could just stay w/ one.

 

[predesad]

i just realized there is no golden age against barbarians, the only way to get a GA in this game will be war. in addition to everything else, we need to decide what units to give GA to. thre will still be AI, so i dont think we should give it to all ancient age untis, but maybe some of you want it included in some ancient age units. need any suggestions / discussions finished by this weekend so i can complete the scenario and send out the beta pbem for a quick minimum 2 weeks (hopefully) test for errors.

right now i am still wondering about upgrade of popped warriors, rubberjello suggested swordsman, so i was thinking legionaries. but then i also thought about making them upgradable to javelin throwers, an interesting uu. also what should we use for barbarians, the standard units or something different, don't think we should necessarily give them uu, which would make the barbarian units different than any the players could have. i guess i could also change some of the adm for the barbarians if necessary.

also, the military academy small wonder allows you to build armies, but only in the city the military academy is in, maybe Sun Tzu's should also let you build armies, then we could potentially have 2 army building cities, there is still a limit placed on the number of armies based upon how many cities you have, so would want Su Tzu's to also have other benefits.

 

[DogBoy]

Ok, finally got around to answering. I had to print off this entire thread and take it to the "throne" just to have some peace and quiet and read it. Anyway, here are my suggestions:

As for units, everything looks good to me except:
-Get rid of archers. They are the same as javelin throwers so we don't need them.
-Get rid of longbowmen. Zerks replace them so we don't need them. Yes, zerks are more expensive so if you want them, you gotta pay for them.
-Get rid of scouts. Chasquit scout replaces that.
-Get rid of explorer. Conquistador replaces that.
-Get rid of medieval infantry. Immortals replace them.

As for upgrade, everything looks good to me except:
-Warriors upgrade to legionnaires, which upgrades to immortal, to samurai, which upgrades to guerilla, to infantry, TOW infantry. Basically I took the bowman and longbowman out. I added samurai which is better than immortal.
-Javenlin throwers upgrades to zerks, not longbowman.

As for great/small wonders:
-The only great wonder we need is the internet. Keep that but get rid of it's characteristics. The reason I say keep this one is I doubt the AI will be around this time. It would be unfair to have the AI build the UN, or even the great wall and waste shields on them.
-Make the UN a small wonder. It's use will produce an infantry unit every 5 turns. The UN right now is the "world police" so why not make it that way in the game. If you want to keep it as another forbidden palace, that's fine also.
-Make the great wall a small wonder. The real great wall was built to prevent rival nations from coming into China and stealing goods and leaving. So in the game, the great wall will produce one extra commerce in the city square of all cities. If you think that is too much, then it will only produce something like 5 extra commerce in the city that built it.

As for techs:
-Philosophy needs to go back to vanilla civ.

I hope I'm not too late to get my suggestions added.

 

[predesad]

Okay, I have a few disagreements with your unit suggestions, and would appreciate some other players to sound in with their opinions / suggestions:

-Get rid of archers. They are the same as javelin throwers so we don't need them.
-Get rid of longbowmen. Zerks replace them so we don't need them. Yes, zerks are more expensive so if you want them, you gotta pay for them.
-Get rid of scouts. Chasquit scout replaces that.

As for upgrade, everything looks good to me except:
-Warriors upgrade to legionnaires, which upgrades to immortal, to samurai, which upgrades to guerilla, to infantry, TOW infantry. Basically I took the bowman and longbowman out. I added samurai which is better than immortal.

-archers are only going to be kept if we give them to barbarians
-longbowman i am still iffy about, bowman needs to remain because it is a UU, it needs an upgrade and it seems more consistent to upgrade them to longbows, besides bowman & longbows have a unique characteristic of archer units of firing a free shot at attackers when stacked with other units, i was not wanting to remove that element from the game

-scouts cannot really be removed because as an expansionist civ everyone will start with a scout, but can make them not buildable. there is no point in having them because jag warriors have same cost but better stats, a 1/1/2 instead of 0/0/2, combine that with the optoin of chasqui scouts and they are really unnecessary

-cannot have legionaires upgrade to immortals because they both come at iron working (note in my upgrade lists units seperated by a comma indicate all those units upgrade to the same unit which is indicated by an ">") want to keep both at ironworking as that's where they are normally available and it provides two different options for a unit a 3/3/1 & a 4/2/1, not to mention the gallic swordsmen 3/2/2

-samurai is a "knight" unit and i wanted to keep them in the "knight" chain, i have jags going to gallic going to samurai because they have movement rate of 2, normally in the game the samurai upgrades to cavalry so i felt they should upgrade to a cavalry unit and i chose the cossack

-infantry already upgrades to mechanical infantry int he game, did not want to change this to TOW infantry, which is what guerilla already upgrades to

Here is my current list of units / upgrade chain:

-jaguar warrior > gallic swordsman > samurai > cossack > panzer > modern armor
-bowman > longbowman > guerilla > TOW infantry
-impi, enkidu warrior, hoplite, numidian mercanary > swiss mercenary > musketeer > rifleman > infantry > mechanical infantry
-warrior > legionary > guerilla > TOW infantry
-immortals > guerilla > TOW infantry
-war chariot, three man chariot > mounted warrior > keshik > ansar warrior > cossack > panzer > modern armor
-rider, war elephant > sipahi > panzer > modern armor
-scout, chasqui scout > conquistador
-javelin thrower > berserk > marines
-catapult > trebuchet > hwach'a > artillery > radar artillery
-curragh > dromon > carrack > galleon > transport
-fighter > F-15
-man-o-war > cruiser > AEGIS cruiser
-ironclad > destroyer

 

[predesad]

as far as wonders, i like some of your suggesitons, but there is a problem:

As for great/small wonders:
-The only great wonder we need is the internet. Keep that but get rid of it's characteristics. The reason I say keep this one is I doubt the AI will be around this time. It would be unfair to have the AI build the UN, or even the great wall and waste shields on them.
-Make the UN a small wonder. It's use will produce an infantry unit every 5 turns. The UN right now is the "world police" so why not make it that way in the game. If you want to keep it as another forbidden palace, that's fine also.
-Make the great wall a small wonder. The real great wall was built to prevent rival nations from coming into China and stealing goods and leaving. So in the game, the great wall will produce one extra commerce in the city square of all cities. If you think that is too much, then it will only produce something like 5 extra commerce in the city that built it.

the debate here is between the internet and UN, both are not available until late in the modern age, do we want a wonder that can acts as another forbidden palace AND produces an infantry (mechanical infantry / TOW infantry?) every 5 turns or do we wnat a wonder which gives us 2 free advances?

i am not sure about the commerce capability in the editor, i do not know if i can make a wonder generate commerce unless it works like the colossus. it should retain the barbarian defense, but there is also an option for doubles city defenses in the editor, perhaps that would work well, but will look at commerce option.

other suggestions anyone?

-Philosophy needs to go back to vanilla civ.

yeah, that would be best, it's not too late because other than rubberjello nobody else has any suggestions and i am leary about putting this together w/out input.

we also need to decide about the starting techs, i can add as many as we want, like every tech normally given for each trait, or we could pick out 2-3, whatever, or we could start with none, but everyone is going to start with the same techs. it is easy to do 4, more than that requires more tinkering, but assigning 4 or less is very easy.

what difficulty level are we going to play? no less than emporer.