Espionarge

My Opinion On Espionarge

  • I Love Espionarge

    Votes: 10 47.6%
  • I Think Espionarge Is Flawed

    Votes: 11 52.4%

  • Total voters
    21

krasny

Prince
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
578
BTS is a wonderful XPack

except for one thing: espionarge

it fails IMHO because:

1. it requires constant micromanagement just to maintain counterespionarge
2. the AI spams spies and throws them at my cities

what is the best way to defend against AI spies? i put at least 20% into spying and weigh the Civs who dislike me highly, but still they get through and wreck havoc

is there anyway to turn espionarge off?
 
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the Espionage system either. Late in the game, the only 'cost' to me to running tons of missions is the amount of micromanagement I'm willing to put up with...and I thought one of the cornerstone goals of Civ4 was to eliminate tedious micro (especially REPETITIVE tedious micro!).

For example, in my last game, I had over 24000 EPs to two Civs who were merrily throwing Spies at me and blowing things up left and right. They tended to have around 300-400 points at a time (since they used them constantly). So each turn I have to go to a handful of cities and re-queue a Harbor here or a Granary there etc etc. They are only one-turn builds at that point, but its the annoying micro that sucks. Ditto for improvements being constantly blown up...With a group of workers it takes only 1 turn to restore it, but you have to find the workers, move them there and order the repair...totally pointless IMO.

IMO, most missions should be able to be run from the Espionage Screen WITHOUT the need to phyisically move hordes of little spies around the map. If I want to run Counter Espionage, dont make me move 5-6 spies around to each Civ and then wait a turn and then run the mission. That is pure tedium in the late game. Why not just let me select Counter Espionage, pick a foreign city to run it in, and give it a chance of success? It amounts to the same thing but without the micro...At the VERY least, allow an ongoing cost to make it an ongoing mission...its COMPLETELY ridiculous that I have to 'renew' it every 10 turns against each Civ!

Going back to that same game, with my 24000+ EPs (and more every turn), I could have ground every city in their empires to a halt (approx 600 to run the Foment Unhappiness and/or Poison Water Supply). I could have halted their production anywhere I wanted and I could have blown up as many of their luxuries/strategics etc as I wanted. But the 'cost' was the ridiculous amount of micro that that would have taken. So instead, I just ignored 'offensive' action altogether in the vain hopes that 24000 to 300 would give me some sort of bonus to stopping their missions. Nope. I'd catch maybe 3-4 spies a turn, but 1-2 per turn would also succeed in blowing up some pointless thing that had to be replaced manually.

Without completely overhauling the system, its always going to be a micro-intensive sub-game. But at the VERY least, they could allow DEFENSIVE missions to be run without the micro. And some better cost scaling late in the game would be nice. Its not a 'cost' to spend EPs that basically earn for free with no reprecussions for using them...ie, having more doesnt seem to earn much bonus either way. And when I can easily earn 700-1000 per turn with little or no econ investment then the cost to run missions needs to scale up too or else they become limited only to the micro (and, I suppose, the need to constantly be building spies which IS a cost, but a minor one at that stage IMO...60 hammers is trivial).

Finally, the AI seems to spend so much on Espionage (much of it utterly pointless) that it lags behind for no reason. The AIs benefit from being able to perform the required dull tedious micro, but the 'cost' for them is that they seem to OVER USE Espionage to their own detriment.

Anyways, I hope upcoming patches tweak the Espionage system dramatically. At the moment, it seems to go against everything that Civ4 was aimed at correcting.
 
i wholeheartedly agree with uncle joe's comments

espionarge is just plain tedious and needs overhauling

or the option to switch it off
 
ESPIONAGE

No 'r'.

Aside from that, your main complaint seems to be that you're too lazy to use your spies effectively. Station a few in your cities to fend off enemy spies, and USE THEM OFFENSIVELY. Complaining about the micromanagement required to place spies in enemy terrain is like asking for a button to automatically spawn infantry in an enemy's territory for gold.
 
yes i'm lazy

i don't see Civ as a second job

when i play Civ i want to have fun not play 'whack-a-mole' espionarge

at least with 'whack-a-mole' pollution you could automate the clearing up

does stationing spies in your own cities defend against enemy spies?
 
You can do ok without active espionage most of the time. I just adjust my weight towards different civs from time to time to ensure I maintain the capability to investigate all cities in the world at any time (useful to see what they're building), and occasionally I'll send a few spies out if I notice a city's suffering from :yuck: or :mad: to... help them along a bit...*innocent whistle* :shifty:

I haven't even bothered using the espionage slider since the medieval age, as I generate enough at 0% through couthouses, jails, intelligence agencies and security bureaus to maintain investigation capability of their cities. The AI actions against me haven't had a big impact either, so I don't worry about them.

It requires minimal management to keep up a passive espionage campaign. Taking an active role will require more management of course, the same as it would if you want to take an active role in military conquest. The level of micro could possibly be reduced, though, I'm not sure as I haven't used active often (most spies I've ever had is 10 or so). How many spies are you using?

On a side note, there's nothing as fun as canceling all your resource trades with an AI followed up by several :yuck: and :mad: spy missions in their cities, then re-opening the same trades ten turns later after all their core cities have lost 10 population. Your cities won't have even burned through their surplus :food: deposits in the ten turns, while they're devastated. I did this to Hammurabi in my current game yesterday.
 
I apologize for a slightly off-topic post, but I didn't know if this had been reported yet.

There is a bug with the Great Spy, which could conceivably affect the whole espionage system. If you get a Great Spy, there is the option to conduct an infiltration mission, which nets you something like 3000 esp. points against a rival. The problem is, the button to do this is not greyed out by default! You can only perform this if the spy is in enemy territory. I deliberately pushed it once in my own borders just to see what would happen, and it consumed the Great Spy without giving me any benefits! This really needs to be fixed so somebody doesn't do it by accident.
 
does stationing spies in your own cities defend against enemy spies?

Simple answer yes. Most spy actions against you will fail if you have a spy in the city being targeted.

Another good use is to place spies in cities of a civ you are thinking of invading and select the add your culture option.

When you eventually capture that city and it comes out of revolt - you have all that culture in the city - similar to the GA culture bomb.
 
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